Will I HAVE TO particpate in abortions if I become a L&D nurse????

[chnc1024]

I'm VERY against abortion! I can't imagine supporting some through one, not saying that I would be mean, or anything like that, but I seriously couldn't act like I thought it was "OK" to do it just because they are too selfish to be parent's and would rather kill a baby than give him/her to someone who would give anything to have a baby. [Please don't reply with all the "medical reasons" to have an abortion! I know you have rights under the law to choose to do what you want with your body. I'm simply saying that FOR ME assisting in an abortion would be the same (again) FOR ME as standing next to someone with a gun in their hand about to shoot another person then saying "Oh wait, you forgot to take off the safety!"] I have been intersted in the whole process of pregnancy since I was pretty young (around 14 or so) and for quite a while even wanted to become an OB but decided that having a family wouldn't work for me if I chose to follow that career, and thought being a L&D nurse would be a perfect fit for me. I had never even thought of the possiblity of having to participate in an abortion until here reciently. (A comment some one made in passing when I told them I was going into nursing school) I will be starting my prereqs for nursing school on the 23, so I know I may find another area of nursing that I would be happy in once I start clinicals, but I really want to be a L&D nurse. Will abortions be "required" for me to work in L&D??? TIA!

Have a Great Day!

Chancie

[Music in My Heart]

If someone WERE to ask me if I PERSONALLY agreed with something, then I would be honest, but TACTFUL!

Chancie, I'd like to challenge you on this... We are called upon to love as we have been loved, to share the truth in love, and to have compassion and show hospitality.

As I'm sure you know, love is very clearly defined in 1 Cor 13 to include being kind and protective.

Now picture this: A young woman with whom you've had no prior relationship is recovering from an abortion. Imagine this girl (say she's 19 -- yes, legally a woman but still very much a girl, too) is laying in her bed and now questioning her decision. Say she's like most women I know and really struggled with making her decision. Now, having just gone through with it, she's starting to second guess (more realistically, 124th guess) herself. The enormity of what she's done is fully settling on her.

You walk into her room and she says, "I did the best thing, right? Don't you think so?" Well, I submit to you that being honest about your views on abortion, no matter how tactfully done, would be very unkind and not at all protective of the fragile young woman laying there and hence a violation of the second great commandment.

Remember that the Word also admonishes us to be very sparing of the tongue.

For what it's worth, my name is also written in the Lamb's book of life and I probably share many of your feelings about abortion. As your brother, however, I'm simply challenging you to test your feelings against the objective truth of scripture.

[Music in My Heart]

I think it is a good idea for people to suggest to this person to strongly consider her future. Someone with this strong of a value about a topic is likely to have a equally strong opionion about other things. Nursing school is long, hard, and expensive to only find out you cannot provide care to patients with different morals. In all fields of nursing that there will be something you don't like about certain patients. I have had convicted child-molesters and murderers as patients (the worse of the worse, IMO). I hated every second of it but I COULD participate in there care, and I COULD treat them with the same respect as I would any one else. Same with my fellow co-workers. My point is- Being a nurse will require you to provide care to people with many different values. It is one thing to hate taking care of certain patients but it is another to say you are unable to. When it comes down to it, you are obligated to take care of your patients. What if you had a L&D patient that you found out 1/2 way thru your shift that they have had an abortion in the past. Would you still keep taking care of this patient? Michelle

Michelle, this is not at all related to what Chancie was talking about. She said nothing about withholding care from people whose politics, beliefs, criminal record, religion... she disagreed with.

She was talking about not wanting to be forced into a position of actively participating (or having to refuse to) in a specific action that she believes is killing of another human being, an innocent baby.

I think her question is the logical equivalent of: If I live in Oregon and work in hospice or an LTC, might I be required to assist a physician in terminating a patient's life (at the patient's request)?

[Music in My Heart]

I wonder if some of you are actually taking the time to READ what I have posted or only trying to find things to twist and throw at me because we have differing opinions?

As I've been reading through this, I was wondering the same thing.

I've noticed similar things on some other "loaded" topics -- it seems like some people don't read the post to which they're sometimes responding but rather just recite their personal beliefs on a subject.

[Music in My Heart]

...i would do anything i could to help someone live regardless of who they were, how they believe...

how about if their beliefs led them to reject aggressive intervention in favor of palliative care?

or, what if they had made their wishes known that they had no desire to be maintained in a persistent vegetative state?

or, what if a parent were making that decision for their child?

all very important things to think about as we consider putting ourselves into the nursing role.

you're to be commended for addressing these issues thoughtfully.

[rn/writer, RN]

Now picture this: A young woman with whom you've had no prior relationship is recovering from an abortion. Imagine this girl (say she's 19 -- yes, legally a woman but still very much a girl, too) is laying in her bed and now questioning her decision. Say she's like most women I know and really struggled with making her decision. Now, having just gone through with it, she's starting to second guess (more realistically, 124th guess) herself. The enormity of what she's done is fully settling on her.

You walk into her room and she says, "I did the best thing, right? Don't you think so?" Well, I submit to you that being honest about your views on abortion, no matter how tactfully done, would be very unkind and not at all protective of the fragile young woman laying there and hence a violation of the second great commandment.

My answer to this one would be, "My opinion doesn't matter. Yours is the only one that counts. I do care about what you're going through, though. Is there someone you'd like me to call who can help you talk about your thoughts and feelings?"

I can't give absolution. I can't confirm someone else's choices. Heck, I can't even validate parking.

But I would try to help her seek support from someone she trusted. And I would be all over the place offering her pain meds and water and gentle physical touch and anything else she needed. I would do this even if I totally disagreed with what she had done because, while I can declaim the choice and grieve the loss of the child, I am not allowed to judge or reject the chooser. And thank God for that, or I'd have been up a creek over some of the wrong-headed things I've done.

[4jen]

Deleted - off topic :)

[chnc1024, ASN]

Chancie, I'd like to challenge you on this... We are called upon to love as we have been loved, to share the truth in love, and to have compassion and show hospitality.

As I'm sure you know, love is very clearly defined in 1 Cor 13 to include being kind and protective.

Now picture this: A young woman with whom you've had no prior relationship is recovering from an abortion. Imagine this girl (say she's 19 -- yes, legally a woman but still very much a girl, too) is laying in her bed and now questioning her decision. Say she's like most women I know and really struggled with making her decision. Now, having just gone through with it, she's starting to second guess (more realistically, 124th guess) herself. The enormity of what she's done is fully settling on her.

You walk into her room and she says, "I did the best thing, right? Don't you think so?" Well, I submit to you that being honest about your views on abortion, no matter how tactfully done, would be very unkind and not at all protective of the fragile young woman laying there and hence a violation of the second great commandment.

Remember that the Word also admonishes us to be very sparing of the tongue.

For what it's worth, my name is also written in the Lamb's book of life and I probably share many of your feelings about abortion. As your brother, however, I'm simply challenging you to test your feelings against the objective truth of scripture.

Thanks for replying with this, I think this is a wonderful question! And I completely agree, that there would not really be anyway to be honest, tactul and KIND all at the same time! I would never want to intentionally hurt someone! If someone were to ask me a question such as this BEFORE the abortion...I think it would be more possible to be honest, tactful and kind, maybe just by saying something to the effect of "I can't tell you what you should or shouldn't do. But I think you should be very sure that this is what you want to do, because the choice to abort your pregnacy is a final one." I'm not sure how I would handle this type of situation if/when it presents it's self in the future. I know that I would have to pray that GOD would give me the words he would have me say, because if I were to leave it to myself I'd definatly screw it up;)! But, since your situation is only hypothetical... I would probably grab a chair and sit down and try to just listen to her. I would say that I'm sorry that she found herself in this position, and ask if there were anything I could do to help. But beyond that point I think the only thing I could really do is pray for her!

Have a Great Day!

Chancie

[bagladyrn, RN]

Chancie, you would not and should not have to assist in abortions if this is against your moral code, unless doing so puts the patient's life in immediate danger. For instance you may not want to consider working l&d in a small rural facility where you might find yourself the only nurse available. Sometimes the situation cannot wait - such as a woman actively bleeding out faster than blood could be pumped into her while the fetus (too young to survive) still had a heartbeat. Other people's moral decisions endangered this woman's life as it was a religiously affiliated hospital and the attending doc had to call multiple other doctors and the ethics commitee to get permission to perform a life saving termination. This so strongly went against MY ethics that I will no longer take contracts at hospitals affiliated with this particular religion. This is what I mean by not putting yourself in the situation.

Do consider thinking through though how your beliefs manifest when you speak of this. If all these strangers on a board can get such a feeling of hostility toward the person having an abortion, how much more might a pt. who is recovering and hypersensitive and very emotional feel your disapproval whether you intend this or not.

[VAC]

How about if their beliefs led them to reject aggressive intervention in favor of palliative care?

Or, what if they had made their wishes known that they had no desire to be maintained in a persistent vegetative state?

Or, what if a parent were making that decision for their child?

All very important things to think about as we consider putting ourselves into the nursing role.

You're to be commended for addressing these issues thoughtfully.

While these can also be difficult ethical questions, there's a big difference in in not choosing to implement futile heroic measures and actively assisting in care that will end what would be a healthy life if you do not intervene.

A closer parallel to abortion would be "Kervorkian" care which actively seeks to end life. big difference in this and palliative non-aggressive care. Assisted suicide is illegal in most places.

The bleeding out pregnant mom in the above case presents a difficult choice. But if you don't save the mother first, a non-viable fetus has no chance anyway. There was no other way to stop the bleeding other than an elective abortion??

I agree with the above posters. The workplace would not be the place to discuss my views on the subject. I also would tell the young woman that my opinion in this case was irrelevant and direct her to her own support system.

[HazeKomp, BSN, RN]

We provide second trimester abortions on my unit, above 16 weeks. They are done 99% of the time because of fetal defects or chromosomal abnormalities. All RN's are asked to sign a form, stating when they will or will not take a patient assignment related to an elective termination. We are not required to take an elective termination assignment, and probably half of the nurses do not.

However, ALL nurses must care for the patient in an emergent situation, or if she calls on her call bell (i.e. you must answer her call bell and assist her as needed).quote]

This is exactly the same at my hospital in Las Vegas.

Everyone is asked at time of hire. No one is forced to take abortion patients. All are expected to answer call lights or help in an emergency, but those who prefer not to do abortions are never asked to administer abortifactant medications or be the primary nurse for those patients.

All are expected to care for fetal demise patients, unless personal circumstances make it an inappropriate assignment. (ex. 8 month pregnant nurse, nurse with recent miscarriage, etc.)

haze

[rn/writer, RN]

We provide second trimester abortions on my unit, above 16 weeks. They are done 99% of the time because of fetal defects or chromosomal abnormalities. All RN's are asked to sign a form, stating when they will or will not take a patient assignment related to an elective termination. We are not required to take an elective termination assignment, and probably half of the nurses do not.

However, ALL nurses must care for the patient in an emergent situation, or if she calls on her call bell (i.e. you must answer her call bell and assist her as needed).quote]

This is exactly the same at my hospital in Las Vegas.

Everyone is asked at time of hire. No one is forced to take abortion patients. All are expected to answer call lights or help in an emergency, but those who prefer not to do abortions are never asked to administer abortifactant medications or be the primary nurse for those patients.

All are expected to care for fetal demise patients, unless personal circumstances make it an inappropriate assignment. (ex. 8 month pregnant nurse, nurse with recent miscarriage, etc.)

haze

This sounds like a fair and practical policy. It isn't assisting with a procedure to answer a call light or provide care afterward. Might be a good idea for other facilities to determine staff choices ahead of time.

[KellNY, RN]

1st of all, this became a "heated" topic, open to debate and strong feelings when the OP said

I seriously couldn't act like I thought it was "OK" to do it just because they are too selfish to be parent's and would rather kill a baby than give him/her to someone who would give anything to have a baby.

OP-I simply wouldn't want you as my nurse, before, during or after my labor/abortion/csection/evaluation/tocolysis, etc. I'm not sure I would be able to view you in any type of positive light after that post. Realize that this is my opinion, which just as you are, I am entitled to.

A simple "I'm morally opposed to participating in an abortion" would have sufficed, and hopefully will in the future. There's no need to refer to statistically about half your patient base as selfish 'killers'--some 3 or 4 or 10 times over. It's disrespectful to say the least. Keep in mind also before you express this sentiment that many of your coworkers will have had abortions, and most have seen some horrific cases where abortion was necessary for varying reasons.

I understand you have strong opinions, as many of us do (I've met 3 people in my life who just shrugged when I've asked about their feelings regarding abortion--most people IME are very passionate-even those on the fence). My qualm is your brash judgement as those who have chosen abortion as selfish.

I just hope that if you do go into L&D, you can try to be a little less judgemental (saying that someone is selfish before even knowing their name, let alone their circumstances is judgemental. Let's call it like it is). I also hope that you do refrain from sharing your very charged views with your patients--be it before or after their procedure--as it is very inapproriate to give your opinions on such matters.

I'm actually going through an abortion right now (medical, not surgical, as I'm obviously not typing this from an OR bed ), so I will admit that my feelings on this are a bit....fresh. In my fathers eyes (and some of yours), me halting the development and expelling a 3week (5wk lmp) embryo via medication is tantamount to shooting my living 3rd grader in the head in cold blood.

I'm not going to change your mind, you're not going to change mine. That's all been established.