Why don't we talk much about these scenarios?

[Persephone Paige]

I have personally known one nurse who was attacked and killed in an intake facility. They found her body shoved up underneath the patient's bed.

I get that there are certain inherent risks when dealing with people, in general. I just think that when a nurse dies at the hands of a patient, it doesn't generate the same sympathy or shock. Why? People are people and some people are nuts, but all people are human.

Just wondering how it feels to other nurses when they read these type articles? Do you get angry, are you incredulous? Or do you just take that gamble everyday when you go to work? Would you fight back if you were being seriously attacked, are we even allowed to fight back? I know for myself, some of our Med-Surg patients are crazy but too sick to be transferred yet to the psych ward. And by sick, that could just mean infection, etc... These folks are still VERY mobile and capable of great harm. There are times when I've been afraid. And saying we have 'security' in these type situations is a joke. A nurse would be severely injured by the time security made it up to the floor. So, to think I am safe simply because I don't work in a psych ward or an intake facility isn't accurate.

Interested on different takes and safety strategies.

http://www.ksla.com/2019/04/15/baton-rouge-nurse-dies-days-after-attack-by-patient/?fbclid=IwAR2dpYzPC5_1wyTPyIPbJ_HGLEXdGCqh3yB1RRXEKqR9dW5BwfkVKmHwcb8

[hppygr8ful, ASN, RN, EMT-I]

5 hours ago, NightNerd said:

Yeah, that's kind of been my experience with CPI as well. Helpful in some scenarios, but if an angry able-bodied person of any respectable size is coming for me, I don't think this will cut it. Our instructors even admitted as much during the class.

We get MAB (Management of assaultive behavior) training which is way more advanced than CPI which I have also been trained . We still aren't allowed to hurt patients but documentation is your friend ………("Patient lunged at this writer with closed fists, tripped and this writer caught him and gently assisted patient to the floor...")

Hppy

[OldDude]

CPI is a feckless pantywaist program intended to insulate administration from responsibility...other than that, I don't have an opinion about it.

[Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN]

In active shooter training, we’re taught “Run, Hide, or Fight.” If we have to resort to the “fight” option, we fight to SURVIVE. among the suggestions are throwing sharp objects or heavy furniture.

I’m willing to die for one of my kids and I’m willing to die for my faith... I am NOT willing to die for a job.

I pray this one of our own receives swift justice.

[NightNerd, MSN, RN]

2 hours ago, hppygr8ful said:

We get MAB (Management of assaultive behavior) training which is way more advanced than CPI which I have also been trained . We still aren't allowed to hurt patients but documentation is your friend ………("Patient lunged at this writer with closed fists, tripped and this writer caught him and gently assisted patient to the floor...")

Hppy

I will bring this up to my manager. I feel like with CPI we are inviting injury for both patients and staff during violent situations. A more effective program would ease a lot of anxiety and help us be more prepared to handle things effectively and without anyone getting hurt.

1 hour ago, OldDude said:

CPI is a feckless pantywaist program intended to insulate administration from responsibility...other than that, I don't have an opinion about it.

SOMEONE SAID IT! In the most accurate and hilarious way possible!

[hppygr8ful, ASN, RN, EMT-I]

1 hour ago, NightNerd said:

I will bring this up to my manager. I feel like with CPI we are inviting injury for both patients and staff during violent situations. A more effective program would ease a lot of anxiety and help us be more prepared to handle things effectively and without anyone getting hurt.

SOMEONE SAID IT! In the most accurate and hilarious way possible!

Look up MAB training - It teaches you a lot more escape moves and non-lethal containment moves as well as how to use things like chairs, janitors carts etc to protect your self until help arrives.

Hppy

[HarleyvQuinn, MSN, RN, NP]

5 hours ago, hppygr8ful said:

Look up MAB training - It teaches you a lot more escape moves and non-lethal containment moves as well as how to use things like chairs, janitors carts etc to protect your self until help arrives.

Hppy

That would be awesome. This is also where our staff is struggling the most - being scrutinized for "not using CPI technique" when the situation requires hands-on techniques getting the patient from the hallway to the room or safely to the floor. The things not taught in basic CPI but that are taught in advanced CPI. What we're not even being offered in the ineffective crap to start with. With only one security personnel response to basic codes, it's not like we can rely on them alone to move the patient to the restraint room either.

[OldDude]

7 hours ago, hppygr8ful said:

Look up MAB training - It teaches you a lot more escape moves and non-lethal containment moves as well as how to use things like chairs, janitors carts etc to protect your self until help arrives.

Hppy

Hopefully when "help" arrives it will actually be helpful. The last serious incident I was involved in was many many years ago in the ER when a 17 year old girl was kicking all of our butts left and right. When the security guard arrived the first thing this girl did was throw him into a brick wall; he never worked again due to multiple fractured vertebra. We finally piled enough bodies on top of her to hogtie her flailing arms and legs and place a mask on her spitting mouth. The aftermath in the ER looked like a tornado had gone through the place. She was never charged with assault or taken to jail.

I wasn't CPI trained at that time...Gee if I was I could have prevented all that violence with one simple technique...darn.

[hppygr8ful, ASN, RN, EMT-I]

3 hours ago, OldDude said:

Hopefully when "help" arrives it will actually be helpful. The last serious incident I was involved in was many many years ago in the ER when a 17 year old girl was kicking all of our butts left and right. When the security guard arrived the first thing this girl did was throw him into a brick wall; he never worked again due to multiple fractured vertebra. We finally piled enough bodies on top of her to hogtie her flailing arms and legs and place a mask on her spitting mouth. The aftermath in the ER looked like a tornado had gone through the place. She was never charged with assault or taken to jail.

I wasn't CPI trained at that time...Gee if I was I could have prevented all that violence with one simple technique...darn.

Of course I work in a great in-patient psych unit. We watch each other's backs. If it looks like someone is ramping up we can call a "silent code" to bring extra bodies to the unit. This creates a strong presence. If it is emergent an overhead page of "Code Green" brings about 10 people to the unit double quick. Yesterday I had a psychotic patient refusing his meds and was going to give an injection. A fellow co-work who was walking by stopped and joined me at my request and we went in with both orals and the injection in hand. I calmly told patient what was going to happen if he didn't take the orals he said "Burn in hell Satan!" and postured up with closed fists. My coworker moved toward the patient and he immediately backed down and took his meds. I will add that oral emergency meds actually work faster than injectable so getting him to take them that way was the desirable outcome. No take down required no one got hurt.

Hppy

[Plum2raisin]

As a cob, my take on the increased violence toward nurses, is part of the current social fabric. Many centuries ago as a 19 y/o student I did my psych clinical's, one of the wards was men's overactive. We were told that the patients had an innate respect for the nurses and don't attack the women, but we were given all sorts of precautions which we followed. In later years in an ambulatory clinic I was attacked by a patient in a wheelchair, she wasn't getting what she wanted quick enough. I am still sorry I didn't file a police report. We are giving a lot of lip service to violence against women, but no action at all. My heart goes out to all the young nurses having to cope with this in the workplace.

[Workitinurfava, BSN, RN]

On 4/16/2019 at 8:25 PM, TriciaJ said:

I would stay alive first and worry about the mortgage second. I would fight dirty if need be, because it's a bad time to be worrying about your license or your job.

I might still be killed, but that doesn't mean I have to make it easy.

Right, a dead nurse won't be able to use her license anyway, and even a severely injured one.

[Workitinurfava, BSN, RN]

14 hours ago, OldDude said:

Hopefully when "help" arrives it will actually be helpful. The last serious incident I was involved in was many many years ago in the ER when a 17 year old girl was kicking all of our butts left and right. When the security guard arrived the first thing this girl did was throw him into a brick wall; he never worked again due to multiple fractured vertebra. We finally piled enough bodies on top of her to hogtie her flailing arms and legs and place a mask on her spitting mouth. The aftermath in the ER looked like a tornado had gone through the place. She was never charged with assault or taken to jail.

I wasn't CPI trained at that time...Gee if I was I could have prevented all that violence with one simple technique...darn.

She needed to be sprayed with mace or tased. That is what would happen if she was doing this in the street.

[Nunya, BSN]

On 4/16/2019 at 8:25 PM, TriciaJ said:

I would stay alive first and worry about the mortgage second. I would fight dirty if need be, because it's a bad time to be worrying about your license or your job.

I might still be killed, but that doesn't mean I have to make it easy.

This is why there are good lawyers around. I'll protect myself so I can be alive to hire one to get my job back ..if I even want it at that point.