Okay, I could see certain philisophical objections, such as if you are a libertarian, or strict conservative that opposes most governmental regulations (after all standards for education are a form of governmental regulation). However, any such provisions would almost certainly have provisions that "grand-fathered" in all current RN's who had diploma or ADN/ASN degrees (and would probably include those students currently enrolled in ADN programs).
The bottom line is that pay, and to a lesser extent respect for ANY profession, is primarily determined by supply and demand for that profession. Now as nurses, there is little that we can do to address demand ( save perhaps for buying stock in fast food restaurents since that will surely generate more business in terms of cardiovascular disease). However, we can address supply. In so much as getting a BSN requires more time and effort than a ADN it will TEND to diminish the supply of nurses. Virturally every profession in the United States has recognized this simple principal from accountents, to physicians and pharmacists. Over the years they have successfully lobbied their various state and federal representatives to steadily raise the requirements in order to obtain a license to practice their profession. Consider Pharmacists for instance. At one time all one had to do was "work behind the counter" under the instruction of an experienced pharmacist for several years to acquire a pharmacy license. Then they required an examination. Gradually, the requirements were increased to a two, then a four year degree. Now it requires SIX years of difficult schooling plus a challenging examination to practice pharmacy. The net result is that the pay of pharmacists has dramatically increased, and they are now in a true "buyers market" for their services.
It's the way the "profession game" is played in the United States. I'm not saying that it is without it's moral implications. As someone who is largely libertarian, I am usually opposed to most governmental intrusion in the private sector. However, I'm also a realist, and as someone who plans on spending the rest of my life in this profession, I realize that this is the sort of thing that will help to raise the compensation, and benefit level of my chosen profession.
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
Originally posted by Roland
? My only concern here is maximizing RN salaries. .
you wrote VOLUMES, near-dissertations, on this thread and THIS is YOUR ONLY CONCERN???!
well why didn't you put it more succinctly? It can be said just you did so here.... I can't believe this is your ONLY concern! Really, education is about enhancing salary base and nothing more??? that's kind oh I dunno......sad.
to support that thesis (requiring a BSN will diminish RN supply and increase compensation). I personally, believe that education and degrees are entirely seperate things. Most of what I have learned (including in such subjects as Physics, mathmatics, and physiology) has been on my own rather than in the courses that I've been required to take. My primary concern in life however, is to support my family, and nursing will facilitate that happening. Furthermore, anything which increases RN pay will make that easier. I believe that much of life is war especially when it comes to economic life (such as the competition for higher wages between professions). This is the nature of a highly capitalistic society that values freedom. What I present above is one strategy for maximizing the opportunities of RN's to "win" that war.
I believe that much of life is war especially when it comes to economic life (such as the competition for higher wages between professions). This is the nature of a highly capitalistic society that values freedom. What I present above is one strategy for maximizing the opportunities of RN's to "win" that war.
Ah yes, "Mercenary Nursing" which is not to be confused with the Angel of Mercy. I guess we will eventually have to get a ANCC certification for that too.
apologies for wanting my chosen profession to be better compensated. It means a better education, better housing, some possibility for saving for retirement (it's not like most nurses can look forward to a pension or anything), and yes even better HEALTHCARE opportunities for them and their families. Please don't give me the line about "it shouldn't be about the money". Granted, most nurses are motivated by more than just money and that's an attribute to their divinity of spirit. I would submit to you however, that Hospitals, HMO's, physicians, insurance companies, and yes the government have taken advantage of that benevolent spirit, and reticence to fight for what is rightfully theirs. I will not rest until the beauty, intelligence, and professionalism that nurses have demonstrated for generations is rightfully compensated and hopefully respected. If that makes me a soldier of fortune then I'll take that bullet, and kindly ask for another.
I would submit to you however, that Hospitals, HMO's, physicians, insurance companies, and yes the government have taken advantage of that benevolent spirit...
I would agree that is a true statement in some instances. However there are many other issues as well that contribute to nursing's woes.
I have a masters and make less than I did in 86 in home health. PPS has nixed the idea of getting more money. In home health the masters has gotten me no additional pay. I got the degree for my own personnal growth and not for money.
I do not feel anything higher than an ADN is necessary. I have seen people with BSN/MSNs not be able to fight their way out of a paper bag. The program changes some people into something besides a hands on care nurse SOMETIMES not all the time.
seem to keep bringing up the BSN verses ASN debate as to what degree is better? Can't you see that's not my point? My only concern here is maximizing RN salaries. Point out why that is a horrible idea all day long if you want, but don't keep going back to this bickering over ASN verses BSN.
Well, that's great for your priorities in life, but I would rather have plenty of RNs with appropriate education so that we could all have a manageable patient load and increased safety and care for my patients.
Now, I could suggest letting people get through with a one year program, act as a nurse (during a previous nursing shortage, the AMA actually suggested and backed this idea - registered care assistants, something like that), but that is not adequate preparation. But by the same token, I don't believe that you need a BSN to do so (those extra classes in humanities, etc. don't amount to a hill of beans in a code).
And let us be honest, how many associate degree programs are really only 60-64 credit semester hours (2 years, in any other program)?. The vast majority run over 90 credit semester hours (3 years). Why does this not have it's own classification other than ADN/ASN/BSN?
And quite frankly, if I were forced to get a BSN, I would get my Bachelor's in something other than Nursing. It is not that I lack dedication as a nurse, it is that I accept the realities of Nursing as it currently is, and I do not consider that it is a very healthy lifestyle and workstyle.
And quite frankly, if I were forced to get a BSN, I would get my Bachelor's in something other than Nursing. It is not that I lack dedication as a nurse, it is that I accept the realities of Nursing as it currently is, and I do not consider that it is a very healthy lifestyle and workstyle.
I can tell you that having a Bachelor's may not be all that it's cracked up to be, depending on which field it's in. I have a B.S. in Psychology that has gotten me nowhere. I have worked only in administrative positions since I got the degree in 1999. After getting laid off from said administrative job and being treated like an idiot by a CEO in one of my many job interviews, I realized that I wanted and needed to become specialized in something-preferably in a profession that helps people (which is why I majored in Psychology to begin with), hence my choice to start nursing school. At least you get paid good for 2 years of school with nursing vs. bad pay with a 4 year degree in Psychology.
, consider that once upon a time in America simply having a HIGHSCHOOL diploma was a ticket to a good job. The reason that it means little today is not so much that our educational system is not what it used to be (it may or may not be we could debate that in a different fifty plus long thread). Rather it is because SO many more people have highschool diplomas. Consider, that if GOD snapped his cosmic fingers and gave MOST people a 140 IQ, along with a PhD from Harvard in Medicine, Law, and Physics (thrown in just for fun), that it would take at least a MASTERS to work at KFC or Taco Bell. That is because most of our economic system is set up so that we COMPETE against each other for the available resources ranging from spouces, to jobs. Furthermore, in such a society the "really good jobs" would require an average IQ 160 along with post doctoral work in all of the above subjects from Oxford and Cambridge, with a Nobel prize being preferred.
Get real Roland! There is already a nursing shortage. Perhaps you would prefer to be taking care of 30 patients at a time for your little increase in pay...........
, consider that once upon a time in America simply having a HIGHSCHOOL diploma was a ticket to a good job. The reason that it means little today is not so much that our educational system is not what it used to be (it may or may not be we could debate that in a different fifty plus long thread). Rather it is because SO many more people have highschool diplomas. Consider, that if GOD snapped his cosmic fingers and gave MOST people a 140 IQ, along with a PhD from Harvard in Medicine, Law, and Physics (thrown in just for fun), that it would take at least a MASTERS to work at KFC or Taco Bell. That is because most of our economic system is set up so that we COMPETE against each other for the available resources ranging from spouces, to jobs. Furthermore, in such a society the "really good jobs" would require an average IQ 160 along with post doctoral work in all of the above subjects from Oxford and Cambridge, with a Nobel prize being preferred.
This thread has gone past silly, not to mention stupid...let's keep it simple: Vocational training as an RN, followed by baccalaureate "education" PRN; Masters optional for those aspiring to lofty heights. Lets not forget that a BSN is nothing more than vocational traing, with liberal arts education thrown in...no different than any RN who has a baccalaureate in any other field. If anything, an RN with a baccalaureate in another field has the equivalent of a double, if not, a triple major. Strict BSN programs only give you that one, so called, RN major. 'Nuff said!
SmilingBluEyes
20,964 Posts
you wrote VOLUMES, near-dissertations, on this thread and THIS is YOUR ONLY CONCERN???!
well why didn't you put it more succinctly? It can be said just you did so here.... I can't believe this is your ONLY concern! Really, education is about enhancing salary base and nothing more??? that's kind oh I dunno......sad.