Okay, I could see certain philisophical objections, such as if you are a libertarian, or strict conservative that opposes most governmental regulations (after all standards for education are a form of governmental regulation). However, any such provisions would almost certainly have provisions that "grand-fathered" in all current RN's who had diploma or ADN/ASN degrees (and would probably include those students currently enrolled in ADN programs).
The bottom line is that pay, and to a lesser extent respect for ANY profession, is primarily determined by supply and demand for that profession. Now as nurses, there is little that we can do to address demand ( save perhaps for buying stock in fast food restaurents since that will surely generate more business in terms of cardiovascular disease). However, we can address supply. In so much as getting a BSN requires more time and effort than a ADN it will TEND to diminish the supply of nurses. Virturally every profession in the United States has recognized this simple principal from accountents, to physicians and pharmacists. Over the years they have successfully lobbied their various state and federal representatives to steadily raise the requirements in order to obtain a license to practice their profession. Consider Pharmacists for instance. At one time all one had to do was "work behind the counter" under the instruction of an experienced pharmacist for several years to acquire a pharmacy license. Then they required an examination. Gradually, the requirements were increased to a two, then a four year degree. Now it requires SIX years of difficult schooling plus a challenging examination to practice pharmacy. The net result is that the pay of pharmacists has dramatically increased, and they are now in a true "buyers market" for their services.
It's the way the "profession game" is played in the United States. I'm not saying that it is without it's moral implications. As someone who is largely libertarian, I am usually opposed to most governmental intrusion in the private sector. However, I'm also a realist, and as someone who plans on spending the rest of my life in this profession, I realize that this is the sort of thing that will help to raise the compensation, and benefit level of my chosen profession.
BSN-ADN all I know is when I am sick I want a caring knowledgable person caring for me and I want the best care I can get be that BSN or what. In case you are wondering I have both a ADN and a BSN- I have worked with great and bad nurses at all education levels we need to support and educate our profession not sause division
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
I think coupled with an ADN/ASN all forms of post-secondary education should be recognized, rewarded and appreciated in nursing.
it's HIGH TIME. I had lots of classmates in my AD program who has bachelor's degrees in anything from child development to biology to buiness administration.
time for nursing to put up shut up. If education is so valued, then recognize ALL FORMS, not just BSN/MSN track. HIGH time to put your money where your piehole is.:roll
1. The objection about the potential loss of overtime is a huge concern, but I don't know if it is directly related to requiring BSN degrees. Obviously, nurses should seek state, and federal legislation which solidifies overtime pay.
2. I would have to concede that most available evidence indicates that nurses are in relatvie shortage. However, I am saying that nurses should at a minimun be very concerned when the government makes it a matter of public policy to see that a shortage doesn't exist. This can cause ramifications in the supply curve of nurses that can not be easily predicted or foreseen. I think electricians, plumbers, or dentists would react with concern if not alarm, if the government instigated aggressive policies to increase their numbers.
3. As I indicated above the way to defend against the use of LPN's, CNA's ect at the expense of RN's is to legislatively "formalize" those interventions which ONLY someone who holds an RN license can perform. Consider that CRNA's have done this in many areas by acquiring the EXCLUSIVE legislative authority to admininister anesthesia. This makes them a requirement for any institution that wishes to use anesthesia, they cannot substitute an LPN, or even an RN who does not have this authority (granted they could substitute an MDA, but that would cost them MORE).
4. The key above is not getting other "professionals" to like or respect your profession. Rather, it is to solidify your necessity through the force of LAW. In any case without regard to how much hospitals, and administrators might respect nurses, they will still (in the large, obviously there are exceptions) not hesitate to substitute cheaper alternatives if the law, and economic expediency allows. NOT because they are bad people, but because it is there job to maximize profit to their share holders to the extent that it can be done in a legal manner. That is how our economic system is built it stresses maximizing profit. Even in so called "public service" areas such as police, and fire-fighting public officials will not hesitate to denie pay raises or funding if it is politically feasible.
5. Again, my argument for requiring BSN's is largely an economic one. I don't care if someone has Nobel Prize in Medicine, and has been chief of surgery at John Hopkins for twenty years. I would still require that distinguished individual to have a BSN in order to obtain an RN license (although I can't imagine why such a person would want such a license, this is a hypothetical scenario to make a point). Not because they wouldn't make a great nurse without one, but instead because my GOAL is to ensure economic prosperity for the profession.
Keep in mind that if you were to ask me my PERSONAL opinion of these initiatives, they would garner my bitter opposition. That is because personally, I am a conservative libertarian who doesn't believe that the government should even be in the license issueing business. In addition, I think they lead to economic inefficiencies that hurt the consumer and the economy as a whole. However, this HAS become how the "profession and trade" game is played by virtually everyone in this country. That will still be the case without regard to whether or not nurses choose to participate.
I am in a BSN program and regret not just doing an associates. For one, I am now in debt and in the process of getting more loans to pay for the rest of my school. And, the only difference I see is having to take stupid classes such as art appreciation and philosophy. Anything like that can easily be learned on my own. The only plus i see to getting a BSN is that maybe at some colleges (such as mine) the support science courses may be more in depth. And since I would like to go on to be an NP, I have to get a BSN.
1. The objection about the potential loss of overtime is a huge concern, but I don't know if it is directly related to requiring BSN degrees. Obviously, nurses should seek state, and federal legislation which solidifies overtime pay.
2. I would have to concede that most available evidence indicates that nurses are in relatvie shortage. However, I am saying that nurses should at a minimun be very concerned when the government makes it a matter of public policy to see that a shortage doesn't exist. This can cause ramifications in the supply curve of nurses that can not be easily predicted or foreseen. I think electricians, plumbers, or dentists would react with concern if not alarm, if the government instigated aggressive policies to increase their numbers.
3. As I indicated above the way to defend against the use of LPN's, CNA's ect at the expense of RN's is to legislatively "formalize" those interventions which ONLY someone who holds an RN license can perform. Consider that CRNA's have done this in many areas by acquiring the EXCLUSIVE legislative authority to admininister anesthesia. This makes them a requirement for any institution that wishes to use anesthesia, they cannot substitute an LPN, or even an RN who does not have this authority (granted they could substitute an MDA, but that would cost them MORE).
4. The key above is not getting other "professionals" to like or respect your profession. Rather, it is to solidify your necessity through the force of LAW. In any case without regard to how much hospitals, and administrators might respect nurses, they will still (in the large, obviously there are exceptions) not hesitate to substitute cheaper alternatives if the law, and economic expediency allows. NOT because they are bad people, but because it is there job to maximize profit to their share holders to the extent that it can be done in a legal manner. That is how our economic system is built it stresses maximizing profit. Even in so called "public service" areas such as police, and fire-fighting public officials will not hesitate to denie pay raises or funding if it is politically feasible.
5. Again, my argument for requiring BSN's is largely an economic one. I don't care if someone has Nobel Prize in Medicine, and has been chief of surgery at John Hopkins for twenty years. I would still require that distinguished individual to have a BSN in order to obtain an RN license (although I can't imagine why such a person would want such a license, this is a hypothetical scenario to make a point). Not because they wouldn't make a great nurse without one, but instead because my GOAL is to ensure economic prosperity for the profession.
Keep in mind that if you were to ask me my PERSONAL opinion of these initiatives, they would garner my bitter opposition. That is because personally, I am a conservative libertarian who doesn't believe that the government should even be in the license issueing business. In addition, I think they lead to economic inefficiencies that hurt the consumer and the economy as a whole. However, this HAS become how the "profession and trade" game is played by virtually everyone in this country. That will still be the case without regard to whether or not nurses choose to participate.
Sorry this should be appended to the post below, not on a thread of it's own. Is there some way it can be moved?
4. The key above is not getting other "professionals" to like or respect your profession. Rather, it is to solidify your necessity through the force of LAW. In any case without regard to how much hospitals, and administrators might respect nurses, they will still (in the large, obviously there are exceptions) not hesitate to substitute cheaper alternatives if the law, and economic expediency allows. NOT because they are bad people, but because it is there job to maximize profit to their share holders to the extent that it can be done in a legal manner. That is how our economic system is built it stresses maximizing profit. Even in so called "public service" areas such as police, and fire-fighting public officials will not hesitate to denie pay raises or funding if it is politically feasible.
Okay, THIS I can agree with. Now, just HOW do we get the ANA to stop the esoteric work they ARE doing and START pressuring legislators to do this? Traditionally, nursing has played a subservient role. Some of the subgroups (i.e. CRNA's) have broken out of that mold and forced legislation in their favor. This is exactly what nursing, as a whole, shold also do then. But until we as a GROUP (i.e. nursing as a profession) decides to do this, the letter after our name past R.N. are not going to make a bit of difference.
I my self am a product of a BSN program and I am all for all nursing being BSN products as well. Do I think it is going to happen??? Probably not. I work where about 90% of the nurses are ADN graduates and believe me you can tell. Now don't get me wrong there are great ADN grads as well as horrible BSN grads.
I my self am a product of a BSN program and I am all for all nursing being BSN products as well. Do I think it is going to happen??? Probably not. I work where about 90% of the nurses are ADN graduates and believe me you can tell. Now don't get me wrong there are great ADN grads as well as horrible BSN grads.
So what do you see that is different? I don't mean that to sound sarcastic, I really would like to know.
I my self am a product of a BSN program and I am all for all nursing being BSN products as well. Do I think it is going to happen??? Probably not. I work where about 90% of the nurses are ADN graduates and believe me you can tell. Now don't get me wrong there are great ADN grads as well as horrible BSN grads.
Does that mean an RN with a baccalaureate and/or masters in a health related field is less than a BSN?
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
Originally posted by cbrnbloompa
. I work where about 90% of the nurses are ADN graduates and believe me you can tell. Now don't get me wrong there are great ADN grads as well as horrible BSN grads.
Exactly what do you mean by this statement? Please do be more specific. I will LOVE hearing this!
seem to keep bringing up the BSN verses ASN debate as to what degree is better? Can't you see that's not my point? My only concern here is maximizing RN salaries. Point out why that is a horrible idea all day long if you want, but don't keep going back to this bickering over ASN verses BSN.
anorberg
5 Posts
BSN-ADN all I know is when I am sick I want a caring knowledgable person caring for me and I want the best care I can get be that BSN or what. In case you are wondering I have both a ADN and a BSN- I have worked with great and bad nurses at all education levels we need to support and educate our profession not sause division