Okay, I could see certain philisophical objections, such as if you are a libertarian, or strict conservative that opposes most governmental regulations (after all standards for education are a form of governmental regulation). However, any such provisions would almost certainly have provisions that "grand-fathered" in all current RN's who had diploma or ADN/ASN degrees (and would probably include those students currently enrolled in ADN programs).
The bottom line is that pay, and to a lesser extent respect for ANY profession, is primarily determined by supply and demand for that profession. Now as nurses, there is little that we can do to address demand ( save perhaps for buying stock in fast food restaurents since that will surely generate more business in terms of cardiovascular disease). However, we can address supply. In so much as getting a BSN requires more time and effort than a ADN it will TEND to diminish the supply of nurses. Virturally every profession in the United States has recognized this simple principal from accountents, to physicians and pharmacists. Over the years they have successfully lobbied their various state and federal representatives to steadily raise the requirements in order to obtain a license to practice their profession. Consider Pharmacists for instance. At one time all one had to do was "work behind the counter" under the instruction of an experienced pharmacist for several years to acquire a pharmacy license. Then they required an examination. Gradually, the requirements were increased to a two, then a four year degree. Now it requires SIX years of difficult schooling plus a challenging examination to practice pharmacy. The net result is that the pay of pharmacists has dramatically increased, and they are now in a true "buyers market" for their services.
It's the way the "profession game" is played in the United States. I'm not saying that it is without it's moral implications. As someone who is largely libertarian, I am usually opposed to most governmental intrusion in the private sector. However, I'm also a realist, and as someone who plans on spending the rest of my life in this profession, I realize that this is the sort of thing that will help to raise the compensation, and benefit level of my chosen profession.
Because it doesn't necessarily mean you are a better nurse or more adequately educated...I feel the push toward this silliness has good points, but has also , without meaning to, pushed nurses who might otherwise be at the bedside, to go to areas other than that because their BSN makes them "too good" to be in the trenches with the rest of them..To any who have achieved this great achievement, bully for you...But those of us who do not aspire to a BSN in nursing ( (I have a diploma from a majorly accredited school), I personally do not feel it should be a requirement..I do, however, respect your choice to get one...If I were to pursue a BSN, it most definitely would NOT be in nursing....
I've been reading through this thread with just a LITTLE bit of apprehension at responding. As an ADN myself, I find this debate laughable at times, and downright deplorable at others. While I agree there is some merit to what is being said about raising the profession, etc., etc., the mere THOUGHT that raising the entry level requirements, thus decreasing the supply, would further increase the demand. To all the people who are saying this I ask.....Have you looked at how many open positions there are NOW for nurses nationwide??????? My gosh people! How many MORE positions do you WANT to have open? In Florida alone, there are an estimated 5000+ openings!
Now, let's say for the sake of arguement, that we raise the minimum requirements to the BSN level. Just how do you think were going to get people to go INTO the programs? Nationally, there has been a DECLINE in enrollments into the nursing profession. I agree there has been a slight increase as of recent, but no where NEAR the amount needed to fill what is vacant right NOW. Here's a quote from the original author of the thread
Now it requires SIX years of difficult schooling plus a challenging examination to practice pharmacy
. All this to make about $60,000 a year?? I do that NOW with my ADN and a little O.T. Why should I want 4 more years of schooling?
Most "professions" that have raised the entry level requirements were already reaching a saturation level in that field. The raising of the requirements came at a point when the market could handle a slight drop in numbers. Health care, at this point, can not afford that. On the same line, until we (nurses) are taken seriously by the healthcare management community as being necessary, things are not going to change. Why do you think PCA'S. PCT's, CNA's, etc., etc., all came about to begin with? The rest of the healthcare "team" sees nursing as a task oriented profession. WE as nurses have done little to TRULY address that. Oh sure, we've made our own "specialized body of knowledge" (GAK!), and made documentation to a true artform, generated more paperwork than ever imaginied, and STILL get looked at as task oriented.
I see and understand the point of raising the requirements, but not in the context of supply and demand at THIS point in healthcare in the U.S. We are already on the verge of a crisis (if not THERE) when it comes to a shortfall on the supply side of R.N.'s (just look at the number of nurse imported from other countries). Work to get the administrations of healthcare to take us seriously as a profession and not just task completers and THEN we can talk about raising our entry requirements. Until we stop the infighting, backstabbing, eating of our young, and cowtowing to administrations to "meet the numbers" and "stay within budget" (that we ourselves can have no say in I might add), we will still be hand maidens to them (administrations).
Why are studies being undertaken about ADN v. BSN anyway? Are we not ALL nurses to begin with? Talk about infighting! How about more study into whether an ALL nurse staff v 1 RN to 10 patients with 1 PCA is better? How about studying the difference in LOS and mortality based on the number of nurses v. the number of PCA's? Show THOSE studies to the public and see what they have to say. How about REQUIRING workers who state they are nurses to actually BE nurses? I know MANY non nurses who call themselves nurses and are actually CNA's and the like.
You want to raise the profession? Fight against hiring more PCA's/CNA's. etc. and importing non U.S. trained nurses and FOR hiring more NURSES and those trained here IN the U.S. THEN raise the requirements to become one. THAT will change the supply/demand arguement in my mind.
I'll step off my soapbox now..........please excuse the outburst. :)
OK, let me put it in terms you can understand , dear: BSN is exactly what many suggest it stands for , B..ll S..t Nurse. You want baccalaureate trained nurses? Than, any Bachelors level education is perfect; want to be an RN after you have a BA or BS, or whatever, than a Diploma or ADN program is all you need! Got the picture Einstein?
This reply has been edited for extremely foul language
You may want to read the board terms of service. If you keep this up, you'll probably be banned.
Also, never apologize for starting debate! The crucible of heated debate, can serve as a powerful tool of discernment in order to elucidate truth especially when it is conducted in a civil manner.
The point that all the seasoned board members are making is that this debate has been visited, revisited and revisited AGAIN every time a prospective nursing student asks the question (which is at least once a week).
As professionals we would be exempt under the FLSA and lose OT (not that we're not losing it with the omnibus ANYWAY) which might not pay off in the income department even though it would give us "status", *maybe*.
Additionally, an all BSN requirement would have the net effect of gentrifying nursing.
Rather, it is my assertion that requiring a BSN would diminish the supply of nurses, and assuming constant demand, would increase their average compensation.
So I can take care of MORE patients under more stressful and unsafe conditions... Sorry quality patient care and a less stressful workplace are just as important to me as my paycheck.
While this "discussion" could certainly go in many directions, I should clarify that I am not against ANY one furthering their education...And, I certainly do not oppose ANY one for doing such a thing, howEVER, in my opinion NO ONE should be forced to do something, especially since it in no way (again in my opinion and observation) increases or enhances nursing skills....I think it is the individual nurse who marries their education, skills, both technical and personal who makes the nurse..Not a piece of paper..That said, I am proud of those who choose or feel differently...I am a great nurse without the BSN and have no interest in getting one...That is all I meant....Kudos to those who do...My opposition would be on having one be forced on me....That would neither be appropriate or helpful....
Consider also that this sort of action (requiring a BSN) may be necessary just to COUNTERACT current governmental and private intiatives that may tend to OVERSUPPLY the RN job market.
If there's an oversupply of nurses in this country in my lifetime I hereby will pay you, Roland, an entire year of my salary, tax free. The nursing shortage is a huge social and public health PROBLEM, not just some phenomenon to be exacerbated and exploited for personal gain. Yeesh.
After reading about this topic in other posts, not once have I seen anyone allude to whether any Bachelors or Masters degree, plus a diploma or ADN nursing program make a BSN equivalent; if you start in a BSN program with no college credits, than you will eventually get your BSN. If you already have advanced degrees, than do a nursing program, than the requirement for a BSN is not necessary, or should I say the equivalent education has been achieved; yes? no?
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
Originally posted by Alnamvet
After reading about this topic in other posts, not once have I seen anyone allude to whether any Bachelors or Masters degree, plus a diploma or ADN nursing program make a BSN equivalent; if you start in a BSN program with no college credits, than you will eventually get your BSN. If you already have advanced degrees, than do a nursing program, than the requirement for a BSN is not necessary, or should I say the equivalent education has been achieved; yes? no?
Like I said in the OTHER thread addressing education (sigh), you have an EXCELLENT POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would say yes to your question. But then the question comes up "could you enter a BSN program in the third year?" if you already HAVE a BS/BA? Also, if you have an ADN, then you don't have a BSN with the combination you suggest......although the education is there, the LETTERS aren't. And we ALL know how important THEY are!!! :D
I think it should be looked upon as a goal, not a requirement and the ultimate educational goal being a MSN.
Why a goal and not a requirement?
We have a lot of second career RN's entering nursing school. It may be too time consuming, and too expensive to pursue a BSN. Especially those with children and who are working. I would hate to see them out of the future nursing pool. We all would suffer.
Young students out of high school can make more money, and work under better conditions with most other 4 year degrees. These young students are not choosing 4 year nursing degrees in high numbers. Many if they have to get a 4 year degree as the entry level in nursing will pursue something else.
Lost earnings. An ADN nurse can work and receive employer contributions for his/her education. This way we have nurses who are working and can further their education. A win/win situation IMHO.
I think we should all encouage each other and aspire to receive higher education in nursing and in any other field or interest we choose. The ultimate human goal is to grow and learn and to use this knowledge to better ourselves and society. But we should not slam shut the door for potential future nurses by making educational requirements more difficult and expensive to start working as an entry level RN. IMHO it is not necessary.
Sorry quality patient care and a less stressful workplace are just as important to me as my paycheck.
:D
mother/babyRN, RN
3 Articles; 1,587 Posts
Because it doesn't necessarily mean you are a better nurse or more adequately educated...I feel the push toward this silliness has good points, but has also , without meaning to, pushed nurses who might otherwise be at the bedside, to go to areas other than that because their BSN makes them "too good" to be in the trenches with the rest of them..To any who have achieved this great achievement, bully for you...But those of us who do not aspire to a BSN in nursing ( (I have a diploma from a majorly accredited school), I personally do not feel it should be a requirement..I do, however, respect your choice to get one...If I were to pursue a BSN, it most definitely would NOT be in nursing....