Why, would any RN oppose requiring a BSN for all future nurses?

Nurses General Nursing

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Okay, I could see certain philisophical objections, such as if you are a libertarian, or strict conservative that opposes most governmental regulations (after all standards for education are a form of governmental regulation). However, any such provisions would almost certainly have provisions that "grand-fathered" in all current RN's who had diploma or ADN/ASN degrees (and would probably include those students currently enrolled in ADN programs).

The bottom line is that pay, and to a lesser extent respect for ANY profession, is primarily determined by supply and demand for that profession. Now as nurses, there is little that we can do to address demand ( save perhaps for buying stock in fast food restaurents since that will surely generate more business in terms of cardiovascular disease). However, we can address supply. In so much as getting a BSN requires more time and effort than a ADN it will TEND to diminish the supply of nurses. Virturally every profession in the United States has recognized this simple principal from accountents, to physicians and pharmacists. Over the years they have successfully lobbied their various state and federal representatives to steadily raise the requirements in order to obtain a license to practice their profession. Consider Pharmacists for instance. At one time all one had to do was "work behind the counter" under the instruction of an experienced pharmacist for several years to acquire a pharmacy license. Then they required an examination. Gradually, the requirements were increased to a two, then a four year degree. Now it requires SIX years of difficult schooling plus a challenging examination to practice pharmacy. The net result is that the pay of pharmacists has dramatically increased, and they are now in a true "buyers market" for their services.

It's the way the "profession game" is played in the United States. I'm not saying that it is without it's moral implications. As someone who is largely libertarian, I am usually opposed to most governmental intrusion in the private sector. However, I'm also a realist, and as someone who plans on spending the rest of my life in this profession, I realize that this is the sort of thing that will help to raise the compensation, and benefit level of my chosen profession.

In my opinion (as a licensed professional in a field which requires a bachelor's AND a master's AND three years of supervised experience AND a written exam), the only thing that keeps nurses from seeing themselves as professionals are nurses that don't see themselves as professionals.

What you suggest (incr use of LVN's and MA's) really translates into many of us doing some of what we are already doing, but getting paid a lot less for it, and others with less training (and I don't necessarily mean the LVN's here) also doing those tasks.

Patients would suffer. Lawsuits would rise. New licensing laws would be enacted. While lawmakers, as a rule, aren't all that bright, they can follow a line of reasoning, and somebody is going to point this out to them.

Again: riiiiiiing! It ain't gonna happen.

I will be very surprised if our legal situation (basic requirements for passing the NCLEX) changes in our lifetimes.

Unfortunately, because attitudes are almost as slow to change as the law, we will not be seen as professionals until and unless we see ourselves as such.

Look at the real estate agents: they get dressed up, their grooming is sharp, they are confident, they work hard and make good money--they see themselves and are referred to as professionals. And the last I heard, their course is something like 6 weeks long and is not required for them to sit for their licensing exam. Not even an AD or diploma program. Forget about "clinical" experience! And you almost never hear one of them downing their "profession."

Barbers and beauticians are also called "professionals."

I don't think an advanced degree is going to make much difference.

You seem to be part of the group that questions the professionalism of nurses--perhaps you would feel more professional if you went to med school or something.

JMHO

First standards ARE changing all the time albeit usually in a non legislative manner. Consider, that most (if not all) BSN nursing programs in this area will no longer be accepting credit for prerequisite classes where a C- was earned (the old rule was that you needed a C or better in CORE science prerequisites like Anatomy and Physiology, but not for ALL classes taken Sociology ect. ) This represents and example of a subtle, but substansive change that represents a slight "tightenting" of supply.

Consider also that MANY requirements for extra "hoops" to jump in various professions are passed at the state level each and every year. Consider the mortgage broker example that I cited above. I actually tried to fight, that legislation here in Indiana, and was told by my representative that is was a "done deal" because the Indiana Mortagae Brokers Association had basically endorsed the legislation and "paid for" the votes. The requirement that increased the bond amount from $25,000 to $50,000 and increased the education required by 300% passed essentially without debate. Now I'm not going to assert that it would be so easy with BSN regulation, but it COULD be done especially at the state level in certain jurisdictions with sufficient efforts and funding.

As for the "problem" of converting all the diploma nurses and ADN's to BSN's this would NOT be a problem. Consider that there are MANY pharmacists in practice (okay it growing smaller every day) who never went to pharmacy school what so ever. All it takes it a stroke of the legislative pen to write the bill so that it doesn't apply to ANYONE who currently holds and RN license who is actively enrolled in a program leading to such a license. We can argue all day long as to whether or not such measures would increase "respect". It would diminish supply, and tend to increase wages on average (probably by over twenty percent in a few years). Most economist teach that the amount which society "respects and values" a profession is indicated directly by the wages that it pays that profession. Obviously, there are exceptions, but lets start with higher wages and go from there.

Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.

I don't have any objections to future RNs being required to have BSNs. I think it's a very good idea.

I went to a community college in the medium sized city. There were no options for a BSN anywhere in that town. Even if I could have afforded to move, which I couldn't, I never could have afforded to go to a four year college in my state, the loan programs are more prevalent now because so many middle class people can't afford college without loans today. I wouldn't be a nurse today without the ADN program in my school.

Under a plan to require RNs BSNs, that program would have to shut down, thus decreasing the pool of future RNs. Because this is a junior college with no 4-year degrees whatsoever.

I doubt we're going to be able to lobby the government for the hundreds of millions, if not billions it would take to convert schools to BSN programs, and insure that the pool of future RNs isn't depleted. Or perhaps for a while there should be a distinction. That BSNs are RNs, and ADNs are perhaps Associate RNs, or something like that. I think then the BSNs should of course be taking a state board that is different, more commeserate with the education experience than the ADN, until those programs can be phased out.

Also, as Deb said, there are many many many many discussions on this board about this.

I'm going for my ADN, with the intention of getting my BSN eventually. But I would oppose mandatory BSNs for the following reasons:

What if your local BSN program has a lower NCLEX pass rate and less clinicals than your local ADN program? That's the case in my area, although I'm sure it's different for others.

A BSN may not always be more advantageous. Some hospitals in my area actually prefer ADNs because of the additional clinical experience they receive.

I intentionally chose the ADN for this reason, with the idea that I would pursue a BSN later, either online or through other options.

I think the situation is a lot more complicated than just requiring a BSN. There can be vast differences in individual programs that should be considered as well.

I'm not knocking BSNs because I'm sure there are a lot of BSN programs that are better than ADNs. But that just doesn't happen to be the case in my particular area.

lizz has a point. I'm pursuing an ADN because it is the best educational option in my area. The BSN program is not highly regarded at all among hospitals and doctors in our area - the ADN program is very much preferred. I know this is not usually the norm, but in a few places, that's the way it is. I would much rather get a better education with an ADN from my school than get a BSN from the other school, just because it is a higher level degree. Just because it is higher level, doesn't necessarily mean it's better.

I do plan on pursuing a BSN after my ADN. There is a school that has a satellite campus in our city where I can complete the RN-BSN program. It's a better program than the BSN program at our local 4-year university.

To me, it's not a matter of one degree over another, it's a matter of the quality of education, NCLEX pass-rates, etc, etc.

Specializes in ED, Cardiac Medicine, Retail Health.

I can understan why some nurses would prefer BSN only, but supply and demand dictates otherwise. 60% of all RN's are ADN or Diploma nurses. In my opinion this whole argument is about one thing....Money. I sometimes get the feeling that nursing as we see it now, will be quite different in the future. Medical care will be specialized to the point where nurses will not be needed. You will have IV techs, PT care techs, Medications tech, Paramedics staffing the ER's, and they will all be cheaper to hire than an RN. The thought pattern may be that it would be quite easy to train a person to perform one specific task without having a broad base knowledge on something that is not part of the job discription. I really hope that it does not come to that, nurses in my opinion, are the backbone health care.. Nursing school is very hard, so it cant be said that you can teach a monkey to be a nurse (not that Ive heard that in this thread). But health care in this country is a for profit business. And I can see hospital managers looking at ways to cut overhead, and unfortunately it seems as if nurses are going to be at the head of the chopping block line. So maybe some nurses feel that the BSN requirment will add more validity to the profession. If we analyze it, becoming an RN still does not require a degree, not slamming diploma programs, but that may have an effect on salary and respectability, and how those outside of the profession view nurses. I live in Massachusetts, and there is only one diploma program left. I dont know, just my two cents.

Bee freeking 'cause , a BSN serves only to disenfranchise those who went to nursing school bringing with them a Bachelors or Masters degree; if you have no freeking degrees, than a ADN is sufficient, with the voluntary option of a"rounding out" your education with a BSN. If you already have the aforementioned degrees, than it should be the considered the same equivalent to a BSN once you have completed your basic RN program. Christ almighty, what a bunch of narrow minded, turf war fanatical jerks so many nurses can be!!! You BSN types ARE the reason so many people leave or avoid the profession....gosh I hate elitest Nazi like thought processes:(

Originally posted by Alnamvet

Bee freeking 'cause , a BSN serves only to disenfranchise those who went to nursing school bringing with them a Bachelors or Masters degree; if you have no freeking degrees, than a ADN is sufficient, with the voluntary option of a"rounding out" your education with a BSN. If you already have the aforementioned degrees, than it should be the considered the same equivalent to a BSN once you have completed your basic RN program. Christ almighty, what a bunch of narrow minded, turf war fanatical jerks so many nurses can be!!! You BSN types ARE the reason so many people leave or avoid the profession....gosh I hate elitest Nazi like thought processes:(

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Alnamvet... I'm not sure everyone understood your point, dear... you REALLY need to learn how to speak your mind. :roll

Originally posted by Fgr8Out

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Alnamvet... I'm not sure everyone understood your point, dear... you REALLY need to learn how to speak your mind. :roll

OK, let me put it in terms you can understand , dear: BSN is exactly what many suggest it stands for , B..ll S..t Nurse. You want baccalaureate trained nurses? Than, any Bachelors level education is perfect; want to be an RN after you have a BA or BS, or whatever, than a Diploma or ADN program is all you need! Got the picture Einstein?

This reply has been edited for extremely foul language ;)

Originally posted by Alnamvet

OK, let me put it in terms you can understand , dear: BSN is exactly what many suggest it stands for , B..ll S..t Nurse. You want baccalaureate trained nurses? Than, any Bachelors level education is perfect; want to be an RN after you have a BA or BS, or whatever, than a Diploma or ADN program is all you need! Got the picture Einstein?

This reply has been edited for extremely foul language ;)

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LOL OH MY!!!!!

SOMEONE doesn't get it when another is being facetious with them... hmmmm? Settle down, honey... and pull your head out from wherever it is that it very likely shouldn't be. Not EVERYONE here is out to get you... In fact, despite your vulgar posts... I was essentially agreeing with you.

Would you like some A1 Sauce to go with that foot I see you have in your mouth? :roll :roll :roll

Specializes in Nursing Education.
:eek: Wow and I though the last thread on the worn out topic was rough :( this one beats that one by a long shot.:imbar

Its effect is to devalue LPN's, ADN's and diploma nurses contributions ....by its very existence.

Nurses worked hard for their credential and tend to be proud of their hard work and accomplishments. Rightfully so. And it sticks in our craw to appear to be devaluing ourselves. Nurses are devalued enough.

SOME BSN proponents are quite elitist, as some posters have pointed out. This forces more divisiveness.

I am for BSN as entry level if only to unify our profession and help the future of nursing. BUT my skills and expertise are NOT lower on the scale than BSN, make no mistake.

I do get tired of some folks' insinuation that I am somehow less a nurse because I don't have BSN after my name. I doubt I ever will...BECAUSE of the hoops, games, $$$, and elitism I am one old diploma RN who is stubbornly refusing to play this game...LOL!

If I were just starting out, and could afford it in time and $$ I would definitely get that BSN. :cool:

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