Why, would any RN oppose requiring a BSN for all future nurses?

Nurses General Nursing

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Okay, I could see certain philisophical objections, such as if you are a libertarian, or strict conservative that opposes most governmental regulations (after all standards for education are a form of governmental regulation). However, any such provisions would almost certainly have provisions that "grand-fathered" in all current RN's who had diploma or ADN/ASN degrees (and would probably include those students currently enrolled in ADN programs).

The bottom line is that pay, and to a lesser extent respect for ANY profession, is primarily determined by supply and demand for that profession. Now as nurses, there is little that we can do to address demand ( save perhaps for buying stock in fast food restaurents since that will surely generate more business in terms of cardiovascular disease). However, we can address supply. In so much as getting a BSN requires more time and effort than a ADN it will TEND to diminish the supply of nurses. Virturally every profession in the United States has recognized this simple principal from accountents, to physicians and pharmacists. Over the years they have successfully lobbied their various state and federal representatives to steadily raise the requirements in order to obtain a license to practice their profession. Consider Pharmacists for instance. At one time all one had to do was "work behind the counter" under the instruction of an experienced pharmacist for several years to acquire a pharmacy license. Then they required an examination. Gradually, the requirements were increased to a two, then a four year degree. Now it requires SIX years of difficult schooling plus a challenging examination to practice pharmacy. The net result is that the pay of pharmacists has dramatically increased, and they are now in a true "buyers market" for their services.

It's the way the "profession game" is played in the United States. I'm not saying that it is without it's moral implications. As someone who is largely libertarian, I am usually opposed to most governmental intrusion in the private sector. However, I'm also a realist, and as someone who plans on spending the rest of my life in this profession, I realize that this is the sort of thing that will help to raise the compensation, and benefit level of my chosen profession.

Originally posted by Roland

"most professions and trades seek to create barriers to entry in order to limit supply and artificially inflate their compensaton, but nursing in large part does not." Would you agree with that thesis?

I don't believe "simplification" of your "thesis" will save the day here, Roland. Your original argument (requiring a BSN to practice professional nursing will raise salaries) is classic Subjectivism: I wish/believe my proposition is true, therefore it is, regardless of evidence presented to the contrary.

I would also disagree with your latest "thesis". In order to become a nurse one must overcome a competitive screening process in order to enter the educational/training program. Additionally, nursing programs are rather notorious for their formal and informal "weeding out" processes. Then there is a standardized licensing examination. Lastly, as a practical matter nurses must at least temporarily survive today's bedside nursing environment: Physically and mentally taxing and often requiring sacrifices due to the 24/7 nature of the mission, reality shock soon overcomes a significant number of newly graduated nurses. Meanwhile, by all accounts projected demand for nursing services will rise dramatically due to demographics producing a dangerous shortage of registered nurses---this is without further exacerbating the problem by limiting the role of the associate degree prepared nurse.

You have not demonstrated that requiring a BSN will result in salary increases. You tacitly admit that when you also argue the need for additional new legislation limiting performance of nursing services to the BSN prepared nurses. And other than BSN prepared nurses (and their BSN instructors/professors), who would be the likely champions of this required legislation? For that matter why not directly propose a federally mandated minimum nursing wage?----Do you think that will attract some broad based support from those who will fund the increase?

Originally posted by RNPATL

:eek: Wow and I though the last thread on the worn out topic was rough :( this one beats that one by a long shot.:imbar

After re-reading this thread, I have to admit I do crack myself up. Gosh darnit...why oh why am I such a tuff guy????:roll

Specializes in Emergency & Trauma/Adult ICU.
Originally posted by Roland

but my primary concern here is nursing pay and benefits. I believe that good ratio's, adequate supplies, and adequate facilities are important, but they are not my primary responsibility.

I have only been able to slog through about 5 pages of this thread, so I might be repeating someone else's comment here, and if so I apologize ...

I just think that the above excerpt demonstrates a near total lack of understanding of the work of nursing. No matter what the pay and/or benefits, the daily reality of being a nurse is ALL ABOUT ratios, adequate supplies and adequate facilities. I get this after a semester & a half of clinical experience as a student.

No one in their right mind would not seek to maximize their earnings, and the theories about whether raising the educational requirements for nurses would help to accomplish that are intellectually interesting, but have almost nothing to do with what nursing IS.

Just my 2 cents.

that is your right. However, many many of us do care. Having worked as a "corpman" (essentially a glorified nurse) in the Navy, I have experience with having great facilities and supplies, but getting low pay for LONG hours. My mother worked as a nun and a nurse for ten years in India, now THAT is low pay and doing it for the love. Those opportunities still exist for those of you who truly don't care about compensation. Although, I am in nusing primarily so that I can provide a better living for my family, I would continue in the profession even if I won the Powerball (although, I might focus more on starting "clinics" and the like for those who couldn't easily access our tradional health care system).

So in your opinion what SHOULD the average nurse with a few years of experience be compensated? I am just curious. I have only held one job where my reason for leaving was monetary related. The others I have left due to bad hours, poor staffing, poor care or merely because a new challenge presented itself.

I have to say at this time I am very happy with both my salary and my benefits.

I understand the whole supply and demand thing but nursing is not like many professions and nurses are not like many other professionals. Most care about what they are doing. We have a very important job, that of taking care of others. If you decrease the supply of nurses then obviously the demand would go up and possibly the compensation but WHO will pay the price for the increased pay???? The patients yes, but also the nurses. We already work our tails off..less nurses does not mean less patients in the healthcare system rather less nurses means more patients for each nurse to take care of this could lead to more lawsuits, poor patient outcomes, even more frustration for the nurses and even more would leave the profession..of course I guess, in your world, this would drive salaries even higher? IF legislation mandated certain ratios and hospitals could not staff enough nurses to meet the "demand" of the numbers of patients..what do they do? Turn the patients away? We already have a huge problem in this country with access. Patients are in the hospital because they need to be there and they need to be there now not in a week when the ratios are right.

Individuals go into the "helping professions" for 2 reasons..to make a living while "helping others"...If monetary compensation is the ONLY reason you are entering the field..why do it? There are much much easier ways, physically, emotionally and cognitively to make the same amount of money or more.

Specializes in Critical Care, ER.
Originally posted by Roland

that is your right. However, many many of us do care. Having worked as a "corpman" (esentially a glorified nurse) in the Navy, I have experience with having great facilities and supplies, but getting low pay for LONG hours. My mother worked as a nun and a nurse for ten years in India, now THAT is low pay and doing it for the love. Those opportunities still exist for those of you who truly don't care about compensation. Although, I am in nusing primarily so that I can provide a better living for my family, I would continue in the profession even if I won the Powerball (although, I might focus more on starting "clinics" and the like for those who couldn't easily access our tradional health care system).

Listen, no-one's arguing that you shouldn't aggressively negotiate the highest salary you want for yourself and your family. But to suggest that all the rest of us should live with a worsened nursing shortage and all the associated risks and tribulations so as to satisfy YOUR value system (money above patient safety,etc) is frankly completely messed up. If you value compensation so highly, consider seeking a position in a field such as medicine OR other, less dangerous means of increasing nursing salaries.

Don't you understand the debilitating effects of the nursing shortage on EVERYONE- including nurses?

Specializes in Neuro trauma ICU, Flight Nurse.

Reason number one: HUGE NURSING SHORTAGE!!!!!!!

Specializes in ER!.

OK, I've read through the 90+ opinions posted on this issue, hoping to find some way to engage in my favorite and most comfortable pasttime, that of saying, "OK, I see your point." However, I have failed miserably.

Roland, I don't know where you learned to debate your ideas, and I have to admit that on the surface, your presentation skills are admirable. But after patiently reading all you've said, I have to make the observation that your arguments, no matter how well-put they are, completely transcend reality. I am stunned that as a nurse you would say that good ratios and adequate supplies and conditions are not your primary responsibility. Those are vital issues that cannot be dismissed. Say this profession does someday reward us all with unbelievable riches. Your plan addresses no solutions for keeping our jobs when poor working conditions contribute to insanely high ratios, which contribute to incidents like patient deaths, which would very likely contribute to the loss of the job and possibly even the license that makes that job possible. On your first unplanned day at home after losing your fabulously well-paying job, will you be comforted by the knowledge that your plan helped bring about your own destruction and maybe that of another life as well? Can you honestly envision a hospital equipped with substandard supplies and staffed with exhausted and overburdened nurses, all of whom rejoice in their small, elite numbers and say, "Thank God all of us have BSNs!" MLOS demonstrated a perfect understanding of this farce, and she is a student. My bet is that she'll take her good sense and firm grasp of reality and go on to become a pretty dang good nurse.

You say that we are underpaid. Of course we're underpaid. When I go to work tomorrow, I'll hold life in my hands. I'll use my brains and experience to recall information from textbooks that prepared me for commonly seen scenarios in a wide variety of diseases. I'll use those same brains and experiences to find innovative solutions for the unique concerns of my patients as individuals. My sense of humor and my gentleness will make someone's pain and fear a little more bearable, and when my patients go home, most of them use what I teach them to maintain a higher level of well-being. I'll hold the hands of the dying and provide a voice for those who have none against a system that's not always fair, friendly or concerned with their needs, and there's no way I'll ever be paid what that's worth. But I didn't choose nursing because I thought it would make me rich. I picked it because it's unlike any other profession on earth, with innumerable aspects that make it priceless. Contrary to your earlier comment, this doesn't in any way mean that I "don't care about compensation". When I look at my job, I know that what I do will always be underpaid because there's no way you can put a price or value on what I do. But I like my life, and my work finances it comfortably, and for me, that's enough. I daresay there are a lot of other nurses on this board who feel the same way.

What most of us on Earth have accepted is that there are a lot of lovely fantasies out there, including creme de la creme nursing education, obvious solutions to Medicaid funding, and plenty of military personnel to nip our immigration annoyances in the bud. But when I get up every day, I and most of my fellow nurses face the world with all its realities, and we go on to make the best of it. Some days we even drive home with smiles on our faces and say, "Sometimes the material I have to work with is not what I'd choose, but today, I did a good job and I made a difference."

I invite you to join us.

Originally posted by TennNurse

, "Thank God all of us have BSNs!" MLOS demonstrated a perfect understanding of this farce, and she is a student. My bet is that she'll take her good sense and firm grasp of reality and go on to become a pretty dang good nurse.

But I didn't choose nursing because I thought it would make me rich. I picked it because it's unlike any other profession on earth, with innumerable aspects that make it priceless. Contrary to your earlier comment, this doesn't in any way mean that I "don't care about compensation". When I look at my job, I know that what I do will always be underpaid because there's no way you can put a price or value on what I do. :kiss

I couldn't have said it better. AMEN

yet this doesn't stop their professional organizations from aggressively seeking to limit supply and access into their fields of practice. Of course I am concerned about patients, and their lives but as a "nurse advocate" my primary responsibility is to my profession. The arguments offered that my solution may actually make matters worse deserves careful consideration. However, it doesn't offer my basic thesis that over the long term (say the next twenty to fifty years) that nurses should seek to emulate other professions in looking out for their own basic interests. In most cases this means seeking to limit access to the profession by increasing the educational barriers to entry.

Roland, click "search" BSN.

please feel free to PM me when you're done reading. I love your idealism, feeling strongly about this. But despite the previous posts, in respect for your past experience, may I suggest that you might have a different view once out there in the trenches for a year or two in hospital nursing. Please be open to this. You have formed some firm opinions so early in your nursing career, that only experience can adjust, dispite some excellent posts that share other points of view.

The world of nursing, is different from your preceptions,

There are already too many barriers facing good hearted people who want to provide excellent care for our patients.

Lets support their BSN, through financing and proper scheduling after they have joined our profession, not limit their access at the entry level.

Specializes in Critical Care, ER.
Originally posted by TennNurse and plenty of military personnel to nip our immigration annoyances in the bud.

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I was sooooo with you until you said this... :o

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