Why, would any RN oppose requiring a BSN for all future nurses?

Nurses General Nursing

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Okay, I could see certain philisophical objections, such as if you are a libertarian, or strict conservative that opposes most governmental regulations (after all standards for education are a form of governmental regulation). However, any such provisions would almost certainly have provisions that "grand-fathered" in all current RN's who had diploma or ADN/ASN degrees (and would probably include those students currently enrolled in ADN programs).

The bottom line is that pay, and to a lesser extent respect for ANY profession, is primarily determined by supply and demand for that profession. Now as nurses, there is little that we can do to address demand ( save perhaps for buying stock in fast food restaurents since that will surely generate more business in terms of cardiovascular disease). However, we can address supply. In so much as getting a BSN requires more time and effort than a ADN it will TEND to diminish the supply of nurses. Virturally every profession in the United States has recognized this simple principal from accountents, to physicians and pharmacists. Over the years they have successfully lobbied their various state and federal representatives to steadily raise the requirements in order to obtain a license to practice their profession. Consider Pharmacists for instance. At one time all one had to do was "work behind the counter" under the instruction of an experienced pharmacist for several years to acquire a pharmacy license. Then they required an examination. Gradually, the requirements were increased to a two, then a four year degree. Now it requires SIX years of difficult schooling plus a challenging examination to practice pharmacy. The net result is that the pay of pharmacists has dramatically increased, and they are now in a true "buyers market" for their services.

It's the way the "profession game" is played in the United States. I'm not saying that it is without it's moral implications. As someone who is largely libertarian, I am usually opposed to most governmental intrusion in the private sector. However, I'm also a realist, and as someone who plans on spending the rest of my life in this profession, I realize that this is the sort of thing that will help to raise the compensation, and benefit level of my chosen profession.

Hello to all,

Enrty into practice has been a hot issue for a long time.

Applied to my community college for the nursing program in 1974. Took a year of liberal arts and science courses before I was admitted to "experimental" program. There were 2 programs offered. I was 30 years old with 2 teenage boys and had to prove myself before being admitted to the program. Others in the program were retired cops, teachers, firemen and older students. The traditional students, right out of high school were offered the traditional program. There was open admission and free tuition at that time. I took advantage of the opportunity.Most of us thought this would be our terminal degree. My A.D. program was rough.

Miss 2 days of clinical and you are out of the program. We had to do bed making. If we failed, our corners weren't perfect ,we only had 2 chances, we were out of the program. We wore caps and the bobby pins had to be white. Without the white bobby pins you were sent home. Very oppressive environment but we managed to do well, honed our clinical skills and passed the boards with flying colors.

At that same time the entry into practice reared it's ugy head. I, along with my fellow students and professors protested and marched to City university administrative headquarters. I had 2 kids to support and didn't think I would be able to afford the BSN. Looking for perspective employment in NYC convinced me to go for my BSN. NY City was not hiring very many ADN grads but the ADN allowed me to work as a competent nurse and see what the difference was between the 2 degrees. Went to City College for my BSN and felt my education became more well rounded. At City the focus was not on making beds and the instructors were more like peers. No starched caps.The uniform consisted of blue slacks, white shell and blue blazer. Community focus as well as hospital experience. We made home visits to SRO's in pairs because of the potential danger in the SRO's The learning atmosphere was different. Learned about social and political issues affecting the practice of nursing. Learned about critical thinking skills. Had to take organic chemistry, 1 year of physics, chose honors history as an elective and bioengineering and ecology as an electives.

Because I had good clinical skills from my AD program I was always paired with a generic BSN student. We helped each other.

Did the BSN in 2 years and felt it was worth it. Did some private duty on the side. The going rate was $65.00 for an 8 hour case and $90.00 for 12 hours in the ICU. Started staff nursing in neurosurgery 1979 at a major NY hospital. A year later I transferred to psych and have been there since. I was lucky that I chose the City College System because it was affordable.

There is a place for everyone in nursing. I see both sides of the argument. Not everyone can take 4-5 years out of their life for school , especially those with children. My good friend watched my 2 sons while I was in school and I watched her 3 sons and 1 daughter on the weekends so she and her husband could get out of the house. One needs a support system when in school and working.

After working for 20 years and realizing I needed more education to keep up with all the changes in nursing I went back to Hunter College for my MSN in psych nursing and just passes the ANCC certification for Adult Clinical Specialist. I will remain a staff nurse because I love direct patient care. Since I received my MSN I have had the oportunity to teach, become involved with research utilization, outcomes evaluation, and design new group protocols for my unit. I have a very supportive nurse manager and very supportive director of nursing. Education is valued where I work and there is tuition reimbursement.Nurses receive more pay for advanced degrees and for certification.

Education is never a loss. Nurses need to keep current. New medications and treatment modalities are changing all the time.

Hospitals need to provide opportunities to nurses either by distance ed, or bringing the class room to the hospital.

No one will get rid of the community colleges. They are financed by the states and are needed by those of us who have to start out at the ADN level because of financial or family obligations.

I agree that some of the best nurses come from the diploma and ADN programs. Nurses are life time learners and should have viable options if they wish to continue education.

For me it has opened many new doors and opportunities. It has helped me provide more creative care and given me the opportunity to work with other disciplines and mentor other nurses.

The original purpose for the ADN program in the 1950's was to educate nurses in a shoter period of time

to care for people during a nursing shortage. There is now more interest in the ADN programs now that we face another nursing shortage? Is it really a shortage? Or have nurses dropped out of nursing because it is too difficult, not enough support staff, not enough support from administration? The media portrayal of the nurse is not helpful in recruiting new nurses either.

This debate will continue. No matter what side you are on,you need to get involved in the politics so you can make your voices heard. The states control the monies for the community colleges. Find out who holds the purse strings and voice your opinion as a voter to him/her.

Good luck to all.

Ida

It's great to debate here but the changes will come from those in political power. Please excuse typos.

I'm new here, and I'm shocked by Mr. Roland. You have been a nurse how long? Please tell me you won't get politically involved in anything having to do with this subject. The last thing we need is a person espousing your views to the nimrods who make our laws, they don't exactly understand what nurses do.

In all 5 nursing programs within 30 miles of my hometown the only difference between the ADN and BSN programs is the number of liberal arts classes they take, the nursing hours are the same!!!!!! Since I've seen this mentioned by other folks in this thread, this must be a common practice elsewhere as well.

I would support your ascertion of the BSN being a more professional nurse, thus raising the bar, if, in fact, they had many more nursing classes than the ADN. But they don't. Forcing me to take more english literature, more sociology, etc., will not make me a better nor more professional hands-on nurse. The RN-BSN bridge programs make much more sense. If you get your BSN via that route you will in fact get more nursing education because they can't very well make their program up of 2 more years of liberal arts classes with no nursing content.

As I wrote in a position paper for college writing about higher education and some of the less intelligent requirements they place on the students; when I drive across a bridge I don't care that the engineer who designed it had two years of French. I would prefer he'd had two more years of designing safe bridges. The same goes for nursing.

While you are basing your position that you are advocating for nurses first, you assertion that supplies, staffing, etc are not your problem makes no sense.

My suggestion to you would be that perhaps nursing, since it doesn't pay enough and is not respected enough, might not be where you should be working. Corporate acquisition and merger might make a better bedfellow for you. I respect your position but I think you are gravely wrong.

And by the way, I was in mortgage banking for 20 years before becoming a nurse. They are two vastly different professions that can't even be thought of in the same instant.

Specializes in ER, PACU.
Originally posted by SmilingBluEyes

But I have actually been told by a poster here a while back that I "could have sucked it up and DRIVEN the 100 miles each way trip to DO it, if I wanted it bad enough".

Oh come on... 200 miles a day isnt that bad!!

:roll :roll

Specializes in ER!.
Originally posted by bluesky

I was sooooo with you until you said this... :o

Bluesky,this was in response to one of Roland's posts, when he talked about Medicare and how he would handle immigration issues.

Not my sentiments at all!! :kiss

Specializes in Neuro trauma ICU, Flight Nurse.
Oh come on... 200 miles a day isnt that bad!!

LOLOL.... As a newly budding home health nurse all I can say is 200 miles is all in a days work AND THEN THERE'S PAPERWORK!!!!!! LOLOLOL :roll

Seriously, can you imagine LESS nurses out there during this nursing crisis.... They do call it a nursing crisis for a reason!!!! Limiting the number of nurses available is not the answer to our overworked and underpaid status!!!!! Nice in theory, but any nurse that has carried an unreasonable, unsafe load in a hospital can tell you at that point ANY NURSE WILL DO JUST FINE, PLEASE JUST GIVE ME ANOTHER NURSE!!!!

And for the record, I'm a PROFESSIONAL RN, with an associates degree and two more classes for my BSN...

P.S. The BSN portion of the program was a REEEEEEEEZZZZZEEEE it was that ADN program that was ridiculously hard. We had students dropping out of our program like flies because of the level of difficulty.

Originally posted by Roland

However, we can address supply. In so much as getting a BSN requires more time and effort than a ADN it will TEND to diminish the supply of nurses.

If this point has been made elsewhere on the thread, I apologize because I haven't had time to read every single post. But there's a fundamental flaw with your logic here:

There are so many accelerated BSN programs now, you can do a BSN in roughly the same time as an ADN. The BSN program in my area only takes an extra semester than the ADN. I don't see much of a barrier there.

Originally posted by lizz

If this point has been made elsewhere on the thread, I apologize because I haven't had time to read every single post. But there's a fundamental flaw with your logic here:

There are so many accelerated BSN programs now, you can do a BSN in roughly the same time as an ADN. The BSN program in my area only takes an extra semester than the ADN. I don't see much of a barrier there.

And guess what??,,,if you already have a Bachelors degree in another field, just take a community health care course and you have the same equivalent to a BSN, all in just a few weeks!!! How do you like them apples???;)

requiring a BSN (okay there might be some self selection bias going on with those who respond, but my gut tells me that it's fairly indicative). IF supply is to be limited by nurses then it will probably have to occur with more sublime approaches. One question that occured to me from this discussion involved WHAT caused the impetus to change from a "diploma" orientated RN licensing process to the one that we have today (dominated by ADN/BSN routes to licensure). Surely, it had to have something to do with the same sorts of motivations that I appeal to in my diatribe advocating a BSN entry level system (decreasing supply to increase wages and benefits). My aunt, Joyce graduated from a diploma program at Saint Vincents in Indianapolis in 1964 (before going on to get her BSN and then MSN's by more traditional means). Unfortunately, I didn't take the opportunity to discuss this issue with her when she was still alive (add another item to things that I regret, but that is a different post).

If anything, I would think that the older diploma route would be more advantagious to the hospitals since they basically "owned your life" for a rather considerable period of time (two to four years?). There had to have been considerable opposition to the change to the way things are currently done, didn't there? On the other hand maybe I am missing importent information that made the whole thing moot.

requiring a BSN (okay there might be some self selection bias going on with those who respond, but my gut tells me that it's fairly indicative). IF supply is to be limited by nurses then it will probably have to occur with more sublime approaches. One question that occured to me from this discussion involved WHAT caused the impetus to change from a "diploma" orientated RN licensing process to the one that we have today (dominated by ADN/BSN routes to licensure). Surely, it had to have something to do with the same sorts of motivations that I appeal to in my diatribe advocating a BSN entry level system (decreasing supply to increase wages and benefits). My aunt, Joyce graduated from a diploma program at Saint Vincents in Indianapolis in 1964 (before going on to get her BSN and then MSN's by more traditional means). Unfortunately, I didn't take the opportunity to discuss this issue with her when she was still alive (add another item to things that I regret, but that is a different post).

If anything, I would think that the older diploma route would be more advantagious to the hospitals since they basically "owned your life" for a rather considerable period of time (two to four years?). There had to have been considerable opposition to the change to the way things are currently done, didn't there? On the other hand maybe I am missing importent information that made the whole thing moot.

What you have obviously missed because of your narrow focus on the BSN, is that the vast majority of nurses today have baccalaureate level and higher education. You fail to acknowledge this because your vision only sees BSN (much like the ANA), and you have dismissed all other degrees by your failure to see that equivalent education is just as, if not more so, important in that these bachelor/master prepared nurses bring with them additional preparation, such as majors in psychology, social work, education, etc. Thes nurses are infinitely better prepared than just a nurse whose only educational background is simply a BSN. Get over it fella...your diatribe(s) only further alienate nurses from one another more than ever before. I like to keep it simple...you seem to obsess over money, so I suggest you get out of nursing, 'cause you ain't gonna get it; no amount of so-called nursing degrees is going to make you happy. May I suggest working as a sanitation worker in New York City...they make on average of $60,000+ a year...no BSN required! :rolleyes:

Specializes in Vents, Telemetry, Home Care, Home infusion.

EDUCATION FOR ENTRY INTO NURSING PRACTICE: REVISITED FOR THE 21ST CENTURY

http://nursingworld.org/ojin/topic18/tpc18_4.htm

EDUCATION FOR PROFESSIONAL NURSING PRACTICE: LOOKING BACKWARD INTO THE FUTURE

http://nursingworld.org/ojin/topic18/tpc18_3.htm

This article more eloquently states my feelings re needing the BSN as entry into Professional nursing practice. Elevate the LPN role to the ADN level and you have two excellent levels of practioners without fragmentation. For those LPN's who want to advance to RN, continue today's bridge programs fvcrom 2yr to 4yr programs.

Specializes in Pediatrics, Dialysis.

This is in response to the original sender, and not any of the ignorant comments displayed. I am an ADN graduate and I feel there is nothing wrong with getting an ADN degree. You have to find the program that works best for you. I will not argue about which program teaches you more because I have seen both aspects. I have seen an ADN graduate with a knowledge base and clinical skills better that that of the BSN and vice versa. It is all on an individual basis and what you take from the program and how you apply it to practice. I am going back in the fall of this year for my BSN, not because I feel like I have to, but because I want to. I want to either teach or become a PNP. I choose the ADN degree for financial reasons because I could not wait 4 years to earn a decent income. So in the end just do what's best for you. :)

And guess what??,,,if you already have a Bachelors degree in another field, just take a community health care course and you have the same equivalent to a BSN, all in just a few weeks!!! How do you like them apples???;)

Alnamvet, can you please go into more detail about the community health care course you're referring to? I have a BS in Psychology and am curious about options other than pursuing an ADN.

Thanks!

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