1. Overabundance of programs- schools are opening up left and right handing out these degrees. Why? Many of the online schools charge 40-60k + dollars for these programs. Outrageous, but with the hopes of landing a 6 figure job. People are cramming themselves through the doors for them paying up front with government money.
2. Lowered standards- Many of these for profit programs lower their standards to acquire more students.Sort of like lowering the price to acquire a greater share of the market. A good business opens up to a greater amount of customers. Of course lowering the price is not an option when people are paying upwards of 100k for an NP degree. Why not make it easy? No GRE, 2.5 undergrad GPA, no experience, failed the LolCLEX 4 times, no time, No problem! Pay us the money and we will make it as easy as possible.
3. the current promise of close to 100k a year. This is what they try to project, our national average salary, which has been rising for several years. Do I think this will continue? No. Why? Supply and demand baby.
4. Its cool. Wow you have a masters, you must be HIGHLY EDUCATED. People will always want power and to flaunt themselves in front of others. A simple stepping stone to a masters without any difficult entry barriers??? FNP!
5. Weak A$$ accrediting- Everybody who pays for the FNP exam is putting more money into the ANCC and AANP people's pockets. WHY CHANGE IT?? More money for 'prep' materials too. I bet Margaret Fitzgerald is wetting herself with joy over the number of fnp applicants.
6. Not so difficult board exam- yeah it was harder than the NCLEX, but still not difficult enough for our line of work.
7. TONS OF RNS- Schools are also pumping out tons of RNs, who are quickly learning that being a nurse is not as glorifying as they had hoped. Easiest way to combat this problem. GET A MASTERS in the same field.
8. It will all soon end. Soon this degree will be like the MBA.. highly dependent on personal ability and which college one graduated from. Law has also recently fallen into this situation. We are close to follow. What will you do to stay afloat? I hope you plan on going the extra mile, otherwise you may be disappointed holding a masters and still working as an RN since you did not heed the warning.
My husband has an MBA and I have an FNP. I can't disagree on all of these points. However, I must say that my MSN was WAY harder to achieve than his MBA. I do wish there were less schools about, thus making it harder to get in, and easier to secure a preceptor for those students who do make the cut. If everyone goes to NP school, who will do the important work of RNs?
My husband has an MBA and I have an FNP. I can't disagree on all of these points. However, I must say that my MSN was WAY harder to achieve than his MBA. I do wish there were less schools about, thus making it harder to get in, and easier to secure a preceptor for those students who do make the cut. If everyone goes to NP school, who will do the important work of RNs?
That's the thing, no one wants to do the scut work. You have all these eager pre-nursing/nursing students who want to be RNs and as soon as they get their toes wet (1-2 years experience) many try to ditch bedside nursing for the next best thing which is a provider role. I see it all the time on here and at my job. Almost every newer nurse on my floor has a plan to leave bedside nursing within a year or two and either leave healthcare or become an NP.
It's just how it is and greedy for-profit schools as well as accreditation happy governing bodies are more than willing to accept them because after all they won't be offering them jobs when everything is said and done.
I think you take it too seriously. You may not like his sarcastic comments but there are some truth to it. Ok..comparing the rigor and the natures of of NP program with MBA is like comparing apple and orange.. that's the pointless discussion. But there are some truths regarding his comments regarding the uncontrollable growth of NP programs with market saturation (like MBA), weak board exams, excessive cost of education. I would really think DNP would be a good temporary solution by raising the standard.
I think NP programs need to look at CRNA as the example by starting requiring nursing clinical hours within specialty before entering school. (just like CRNA schools requiring ICU experience).
I had to digest your thoughts before replying and the best way to do that was to allow time.
To be "amused" at the "sarcastic comments because their is some truth in it." Is far from taking it to "seriously," that's a hyperbole.
Yes we agree NP program is not a MBA program "apples & oranges"
Your comment "uncontrollable growth of NP programs"? What is uncontrollable? Growth is good! the more NP's in the field working greater the voice and stronger is the power of the ANA & AANP Association and i don't see unemployed nurse practitioners. Or would you rather see more MD schools and have another 100,000 new doctors in the field barking off orders for you task master's to follow, I mean nurses.
Your comment "weak boards" tell that to the NP's who passed the test that it was "weak" or the thousand's that have failed it the first time & had to take it again. As "excessive cost" is concerned well yes it is expensive in earning a Masters Degree especially when those teaching the students they themselves have to have a doctorate or PhD themselves in order to teach at that level and I don't know of any that works for free. A DNP program is great and is the final solution, but then again more money and PhD ' s to teach it. CRNA is nothing like NP programs.
I don't know of CRNA schools requiring "clinical hours within speciality before entering school" imagine someone wanting to be a nurse anesthetist but first has to practice "within speciality" by rendering people unconscious before going to school? That's like a want-a-be Dr working in a trauma center and going to take care of you before going to medical school. I don't think so. But for a BSN Nurse to be a CRNA and having 1 year experience in a critical care setting is mandatory and for good reason. I feel that a BSN Nurse should have 2 years experience of critical care prior to graduation of NP school, meaning they could work while going to school to gain valuable experience. We all have thoughts and thanks for expressing yours for you gave me something to think about and reply to.
That's the thing, no one wants to do the scut work. You have all these eager pre-nursing/nursing students who want to be RNs and as soon as they get their toes wet (1-2 years experience) many try to ditch bedside nursing for the next best thing which is a provider role. I see it all the time on here and at my job. Almost every newer nurse on my floor has a plan to leave bedside nursing within a year or two and either leave healthcare or become an NP.
It's just how it is and greedy for-profit schools as well as accreditation happy governing bodies are more than willing to accept them because after all they won't be offering them jobs when everything is said and done.
Your comment "no one wants to do the scut work... And many ditch bedside nursing after 1 or 2 years."
Well they ALL should leave bedside nursing to better themselves. WHY do you have a problem with that? Jealous maybe? Why don't you join them and get the education?
Look the problem is with the for profit hospitals and is mentality. In the hospitals Nurses are nothing but the room charge to the customers. "Their mentality," Yes sharp words but the truth. ICU nurses are getting 3 pts each and is ok that the pts has a 25% greater risk. that's ok odds for the hospitals, and don't get me started with med surge and the other floors with 6, 7 or more patient & it's charting.
You call these "schools greedy" when just the opposite is true. It's the hospitals that is truly greedy. Did you read the news about CHS just acquiring dozens of more hospitals now numbering 206 and it costing them billions? Their are no unemployed nurse practitioners in the country, so why wouldn't every nurse want to be one when the starting salary is around $90,000.00
My wife has BA with duel majors ( sociology and anthropology) and a BSN-RN degree and her starting salary in ICU was 24.00 an hour. Wow and that's with 18 years of previous medical experience as a CNA and Telemetry Monitor Tech. So don't tell me is about the money when someone starts in a NP program and wants to leave beside care. It's about having all that responsibility and not getting the money for that responsibility . So you move on and that is what that these Nurses are doing. Moving on to better themselves. Moving on to make a bigger difference in people's lives by providing health care directly to people.
Your comment "no one wants to do the scut work... And many ditch bedside nursing after 1 or 2 years."
Well they ALL should leave bedside nursing to better themselves. WHY do you have a problem with that? Jealous maybe? Why don't you join them and get the education?
Look the problem is with the for profit hospitals and is mentality. In the hospitals Nurses are nothing but the room charge to the customers. "Their mentality," Yes sharp words but the truth. ICU nurses are getting 3 pts each and is ok that the pts has a 25% greater risk. that's ok odds for the hospitals, and don't get me started with med surge and the other floors with 6, 7 or more patient & it's charting.
You call these "schools greedy" when just the opposite is true. It's the hospitals that is truly greedy. Did you read the news about CHS just acquiring dozens of more hospitals now numbering 206 and it costing them billions? Their are no unemployed nurse practitioners in the country, so why wouldn't every nurse want to be one when the starting salary is around $90,000.00
My wife has BA with duel majors ( sociology and anthropology) and a BSN-RN degree and her starting salary in ICU was 24.00 an hour. Wow and that's with 18 years of previous medical experience as a CNA and Telemetry Monitor Tech. So don't tell me is about the money when someone starts in a NP program and wants to leave beside care. It's about having all that responsibility and not getting the money for that responsibility . So you move on and that is what that these Nurses are doing. Moving on to better themselves. Moving on to make a bigger difference in people's lives by providing health care directly to people.
Oh yes truly jealous, my email inbox hurts from all of the online schools begging me to attend after I took my GRE. How did they get my email anyway?
Lol I am filling out PA school apps as we speak I have no desire to stay in nursing in any form..
I must say, it is somewhat amusing reading the "sky is falling" threads on various forums, whether here, SDN, PA Forum, etc. Whenever I read someone put down nursing in favor of something else, or vice versa, I always think, "the grass isn't always greener..." Browsing those forums reminds me of that all the time.
What can be done if some really great and prestigious hospitals like Cedars Sinai support low standard schools such as Western Governors? It's not like anything is changing soon. You may be happier if you just accept the fact the the for profit, low standards schools are here for good. Maybe joining a powerful lobbyist group can stop it?
What will you do to stay afloat? I hope you plan on going the extra mile, otherwise you may be disappointed holding a masters and still working as an RN since you did not heed the warning.
Seriously, what is the extra mile? I need to know!!!
Oh yes truly jealous, my email inbox hurts from all of the online schools begging me to attend after I took my GRE. How did they get my email anyway?
Lol I am filling out PA school apps as we speak I have no desire to stay in nursing in any form..
I think you going to PA school is GREAT, expecially you not wanting "in any form" to be a Nurse. You hating your occupation as a nurse it's the best thing you could do.
Some people love working under the feet of Doctors and the AMA and that is what being Physicians Assistant is all about, hope you find what you are looking for. :)
Your comment "no one wants to do the scut work... And many ditch bedside nursing after 1 or 2 years."
Well they ALL should leave bedside nursing to better themselves. WHY do you have a problem with that? Jealous maybe? Why don't you join them and get the education?
Look the problem is with the for profit hospitals and is mentality. In the hospitals Nurses are nothing but the room charge to the customers. "Their mentality," Yes sharp words but the truth. ICU nurses are getting 3 pts each and is ok that the pts has a 25% greater risk. that's ok odds for the hospitals, and don't get me started with med surge and the other floors with 6, 7 or more patient & it's charting.
You call these "schools greedy" when just the opposite is true. It's the hospitals that is truly greedy. Did you read the news about CHS just acquiring dozens of more hospitals now numbering 206 and it costing them billions? Their are no unemployed nurse practitioners in the country, so why wouldn't every nurse want to be one when the starting salary is around $90,000.00
My wife has BA with duel majors ( sociology and anthropology) and a BSN-RN degree and her starting salary in ICU was 24.00 an hour. Wow and that's with 18 years of previous medical experience as a CNA and Telemetry Monitor Tech. So don't tell me is about the money when someone starts in a NP program and wants to leave beside care. It's about having all that responsibility and not getting the money for that responsibility . So you move on and that is what that these Nurses are doing. Moving on to better themselves. Moving on to make a bigger difference in people's lives by providing health care directly to people.
Yeah, maybe everyone should have plans to better themselves in some way. But, since becoming an NP requires an advanced degree, and comes with an elevated level of responsibility, those who seek to obtain the degree should be expected to have intellectual capabilities higher than that of the average RN. NP school should not be something that every single RN can accomplish, it should be for the smartest, and hardest working. Putting their years in, wanting to make more money, and wanting to get away from the bedside should not make someone an automatic candidate to be an NP. As it seems now, anyone who is willing to take out the loans can get the degree.
In my opinion, the poor working conditions that cause so many nurses to be so desperate to leave bedside care are, in large part, the result of an abundance of nursing schools, producing more nurses than this country needs. Nurses are too easily replaceable, there is no incentive to offer higher wages, give raises, or improving the work environment. NPs are being set up for a similar situation. The more in demand NPs are, the more they can demand from their employer.
There probably aren't many unemployed NPs, but there are many who are forced to remain employed as RNs because they can't find jobs.
Also, why would your wife have higher pay as an RN for being a tele tech and a CNA? That's not even close to RN experience, that's almost like saying an accountant should get a higher starting wage for being a bank teller, or an architect should get paid more for having worked in construction. NPs also don't have a higher starting salary based on their RN experience. They're different jobs.
Yeah, maybe everyone should have plans to better themselves in some way. But, since becoming an NP requires an advanced degree, and comes with an elevated level of responsibility, those who seek to obtain the degree should be expected to have intellectual capabilities higher than that of the average RN. NP school should not be something that every single RN can accomplish, it should be for the smartest, and hardest working. Putting their years in, wanting to make more money, and wanting to get away from the bedside should not make someone an automatic candidate to be an NP. As it seems now, anyone who is willing to take out the loans can get the degree.
In my opinion, the poor working conditions that cause so many nurses to be so desperate to leave bedside care are, in large part, the result of an abundance of nursing schools, producing more nurses than this country needs. Nurses are too easily replaceable, there is no incentive to offer higher wages, give raises, or improving the work environment. NPs are being set up for a similar situation. The more in demand NPs are, the more they can demand from their employer.
There probably aren't many unemployed NPs, but there are many who are forced to remain employed as RNs because they can't find jobs.
Also, why would your wife have higher pay as an RN for being a tele tech and a CNA? That's not even close to RN experience, that's almost like saying an accountant should get a higher starting wage for being a bank teller, or an architect should get paid more for having worked in construction. NPs also don't have a higher starting salary based on their RN experience. They're different jobs.
YOUR REPLY WILL BE TREATED AS A TERM PAPER, BECAUSE IT REALLY NEEDS TO BE GRADED. I'M USING ALL CAPS TO COMMENT ON YOUR PAPER TO SEPARATE. IT'S MY DESIRE FOR YOU TO LEARN FOR THE WAY I SEE IT THIS PAPER, IT WOULD BE REJECTED AND NOT EVEN GRADED.
Yeah, maybe everyone should have plans to better themselves in some way. But, since becoming an NP requires an advanced degree, and comes with an elevated level of responsibility, those who seek to obtain the degree should be expected to have intellectual capabilities higher than that of the average RN. (STARTS OF WELL, ABSOLUTELY)
NP school should not be something that every single RN can accomplish, it should be for the smartest, and hardest working. (YES, VERY GOOD! )
Putting their years in, wanting to make more money, and wanting to get away from the bedside should not make someone an automatic candidate to be an NP.
(WHY ARE YOU IMPLYING NURSES WANTING TO BE NP's ARE DOING IT BECAUSE OF MONEY?* THAT IS A FALSE ASSUMPTION AND IT IMPLIES NURSES ARE GREEDY SELF SERVING INDIVIDUALS.)
As it seems now, anyone who is willing to take out the loans can get the degree.
(NOT TRUE FOR MANY REASONS, 1ST. ONE MUST QUALIFY TO BE IN A NP PROGRAM AND HAVE A BSN, YOUR DIPLOMA NURSE AND ADRN's DON'T QUALIFY. 2ND. MONEY DOESN'T GET YOU THE TITLE "NP." IT TAKES HARD WORK, DEDICATION, LEARNING, STUDYING AND APPLYING. 3RD. IN A NURSING SCHOOL PROGRAM ATTAING a "C" MEANS "CONTINUE."* BUT IN A MASTERS NP PROGRAM a "C" MEANS "CUT" FROM THE PROGRAM, YOU MUST MAINTAIN A 3.0 AND HIGHER MEANING NO C's. ANOTHER WORDS IT HARD WORK.)
In my opinion, the poor working conditions that cause so many nurses to be so desperate to leave bedside care are,
(VERY DEMEANING TO THE WORKING NURSES BECAUSE IT IMPLY NURSES WORKING IN POOR CONDITIONS ARE DESPERATE TO LEAVE.* NOT TRUE FOR ALL NURSES IN ALL ASPECTS OF CARE. AT TIMES ALL NURSES WORK IN POOR WORKING CONDITIONS AND THEIR WOULD BE NO NURSES WORKING IN HOSPITALS IF THE STATEMENT WAS TRUE. THOSE THAT DO LEAVE ARE YOUR BARBIE DOLLS, A TERM USED TO DESCRIBE A CERTAIN TYPE OF NURSE THAT SOME FIND THE TERM OFFENSIVE.)
in large part, the result of an abundance of nursing schools, producing more nurses than this country needs.
(NOT TRUE AND RESEARCH DOES NOT SUPPORT NOR DOES THE ANA.)*
Nurses are too easily replaceable, (ACCORDING TO WHAT RESEARCH?)
there is no incentive to offer higher wages, give raises, or improving the work environment.
(TRUE, BUT NURSES UNFORTUNATELY DO THIS TO THEMSELVES. HOW? LACK OF UNITY, HOSTILE WORK ENVIRONMENT BY OTHER NURSES, OLDER NURSES EATING THEIR YOUNG,* BACKSTABBING,* GOSSIP, IT GOES ON; AND THIS PLAYS PERFECTLY FOR THE HOSPITAL AND EMPOWERS THEM.)
NPs are being set up for a similar situation.
(NOT TRUE FOR THE POWER OF THE HOSPITALS ARE TAKEN OUT OF THE EQUATION AND NP's ARE NOT RELYING ON HOSPITALS FOR THEIR EMPLOYMENT.)*
The more in demand NPs are, the more they can demand from their employer.
(YES, NOW YOUR STARTING TO UNDERSTAND THE WISDOM OF ATTAINING A NP LICENSE.)
There probably aren't many unemployed NPs, but there are many who are forced to remain employed as RNs because they can't find jobs. (NOT TRUE! RESEARCH DOES NOT SUPPORT. ACCORDING TO AN AANP REPORT THEIR WOULD BE 100% EMPLOYMENT FOR NP's IF THEY ARE WILLING TO RELOCATE.)
Also, why would your wife have higher pay as an RN for being a tele tech and a CNA? That's not even close to RN experience,
(NOW YOU'RE MAKING IT PERSONAL.)
that's almost like saying an accountant should get a higher starting wage for being a bank teller, or an architect should get paid more for having worked in construction.
(STAYING PROFESSIONAL, EVERY NURSING SCHOOL IN THE COUNTRY TELLS THEIR STUDENTS IT WOULD BE A "GREAT" IDEA TO WORK AS AN CNA WHILE GOING TO NURSING SCHOOL, WHY? BECAUSE THE EXPERIENCE MAKES THE STUDENT MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE AND VALUABLE TO THE COMPANIES THAT HIRE THEM. IT SEPARATES THEM FROM THEIR FELLOW STUDENTS WHEN LOOKING FOR WORK AND THEY ARE THE FIRST TO BE HIRED IN GENERAL. SO TO COMPARE A CNA TO A BANK TELLER AND THE ACCOUNTANT TO A RN. YOU DISHONOR EVERY CNA IN THE COUNTRY AND PUT NO VALUE TO THEIR ACQUIRED SKILLS WHILE GOING THROUGH NURSING SCHOOL.
MY WIFE WAS HIRED AS A NEW BSN REGISTERED NURSE IN A ICU DEPT THAT'S APPROVED FOR OPEN HEART TO WORK NIGHTS BECAUSE QUOTE FROM THE NURSE MANAGER TO THE ICU: "YOU HAVE OVER 14 YEAR EXPERIENCE AND 8 OF THOSE YEARS AS A CARDIAC TELEMETRY MONITOR TECH AND I NEED SOMEONE GOOD WHO REALLY KNOWS HOW TO READ THE STRIPS AT NIGHT." SO IF YOU PUT NO VALUE TO THAT YOUR JUST LIKE HUMAN RESOURCE TO THE HOSPITAL WHEN SHE NEGOTIATES HER SALARY. MAYBE YOU SHOULD WORK FOR THE HOSPITAL ADMINISTRATION IN HUMAN RESOURCES DEPARTMENT FOR YOU THINK JUST LIKE THEM BUT YOUR NOT THINKING LIKE THE NURSE MANAGER TO THE UNIT. AND WHEN IT COMES TO AN ARCHITECT BEING COMPARED TO A CONSTRUCTION WORKER. I ONLY HIRED ARCHITECT'S THAT HAD CONSTRUCTION EXPERIENCE. WHY? IT SAVED ME A LOT OF MONEY AND TIME. YOU SEE THE ARCHITECT WITH NO CONSTRUCTION EXPERIENCE WERE THE CRAZY ONES, THE DREAMERS THAT WERE AT TIMES CLUELESS. YES THEY CAN DRAW A PRETTY HOME BUT GO BUILD IT. I'll TAKE THE ARCHITECT THAT HAD EXPERIENCE AND EXPERTISE.)
NPs also don't have a higher starting salary based on their RN experience. (THEIR ARE 1,000 's of NP's THAT BEG TO DIFFER ABOUT SALARY.
They're different jobs.
(ABSOLUTELY WE ARE IN UNITY ON THIS THOUGHT. FOR NURSES ARE TASKS PERFORMERS, DIRECT CARE AND PART OF THE HOSPITAL ROOM CHARGES TO PTS. AND NURSE PRACTITIONERS ARE CARE PROVIDERS THAT ARE ABLE TO RISE ABOVE.)
NJprisonrn
195 Posts
My husband has an MBA and I have an FNP. I can't disagree on all of these points. However, I must say that my MSN was WAY harder to achieve than his MBA. I do wish there were less schools about, thus making it harder to get in, and easier to secure a preceptor for those students who do make the cut. If everyone goes to NP school, who will do the important work of RNs?