If all the nursing school suddenly open the door and let more people in, there will be a overflowed. Think about all those software programmers back in the days, lawyers, MBAs. We used to think lawyers and MBAs can make a pretty good living but now there are too many out on the streets.
I'm sure you guys don't want to see the same thing happen in nursing, don't you? DO NOT increase enrollments of nursing schools please. Otherwise, we will all suffer. Graduate 10,000 new nurses each year across the nation would be enough.
If you are in nursing education, tell the dean DO NOT increase the enrollments therwise, we will all be screwed.
you cant change all little B.S it involves but you can learn to LIVE with without dragging yourself into a black hole.
This is why we need more nurses... Because some of us do not WANT to live with the little BS nonsense and if management and administration won't work with us, we move on, not necessarily using our RN licences. Then, yes, the BON stats say there are x amount of registered nurses so it looks as if there are enough, but since some of us WILL NOT learn to live with the BS, new nurses are needed to fill the places of those who no longer want to deal with it. Then is 5 or so years when they are fed up, a whole new crop will be needed to fill their spots... So, it really is just a revolving door, not all nurses will get fed up and leave, but to say we need to learn to live with the BS is to say "hey if someone is mistreating you, just learn to live with it, Oh, and don't complain":no:
We need to stand up for ourselves as nurses and NOT tolerate all the BS everyday, and when we learn to do that maybe MAYBE retention will be better and we THEN we won't need more nurses...
I, too, am getting tired of the rehash. One thing I don't want lost is that this topic is a national dilemma. The nurses who seem to be negative look at this site as a place to vent and get support so they can continue to go to work. By doing this they decrease the gap between what nurses we have and the number we will need in the future.
Venting here needs to be safe. I believe that students come with some form of rose colored glasses. That is not a bad thing. We all were there once. Experienced nurses have had these glasses sooted over many times. I have been there. I know .
Some of you will be taking care of nurses who have been living this reality since they were in their early twenty's. They may want the kind of care you think is possible because you learned it in school. Please be ready to give it to the best of your ability as they have.
Now the average age of nursing students is older than most of the graduates of even a few years ago. Perhaps with greater age comes more maturity to deal with the less than appropriate conditions under which we all work.
There seem to be battle lines drawn between the nurses who have been there and the students who want to make it. Nobody wins in this kind of battle. I am not suggesting that we all wear tie dyed shirts and hold hands. I am suggesting that the venting may need to start a new thread. Students use their area to deal with school issues and "vent".
Do we need to get back to the original question? Maintain enrollment rather than increase enrollment.
Wow, I wonder why this message board has this low level of discourse. Why is it that if someone doesn't agree with a particular point of view or that maybe they have had different experiences, people sink to such lows of immaturity and down-right nastiness?
I don't believe, nor did I read that Kasia said all nurses were burned out.. As a consumer and student, I have had the unfortunate experience to bear witness to these nurses. If this is not burn-out and just generallyan unpleasant demeanor.. wrong profession. If too burned out to have a generally pleasant demeanor.. wrong profession.
From the posts I've read, its seems a good thing that the overall impression that we students have is much different from the "reality" or Kasia, we need to run from the hills. The many nurses I have encountered have agreed to the difficulties and challenges of the job, but generally don't get nasty about it...
Honestly, I'm just hoping that we don't encounter the nastiness, that I see going on in the thread. Don't get me wrong, there have been some experienced nurses that have disagreed with Kasia's point in nice and respectful way, and many that have not. I always thought a requisite function of a good nurse was feeling a comfort level with oneself, that there could be a respect for other's views, opinions, thoughts without resorting to rude responses...
But hey I've been wrong in the past...and I guess the take-away is to strive for something a little higher..a little more open! Best of luck Kasia, and thanks to those who have had the maturity and confidence to not attack her.
If all the nursing school suddenly open the door and let more people in, there will be a overflowed. Think about all those software programmers back in the days, lawyers, MBAs. We used to think lawyers and MBAs can make a pretty good living but now there are too many out on the streets.
I'm sure you guys don't want to see the same thing happen in nursing, don't you? DO NOT increase enrollments of nursing schools please. Otherwise, we will all suffer. Graduate 10,000 new nurses each year across the nation would be enough.
If you are in nursing education, tell the dean DO NOT increase the enrollments therwise, we will all be screwed.
:rolleyes:umm.. I guess it's a bit too late for that... Here in the Philippines we are actually OVERFLOWING ( in terms of Nursing students I mean)...
in 2007 or whatever, 70,000 newly grads took a chance of taking LOCAL BOARD EXAM HERE and 24, 000 of which passed... :no:Imagine 70 THOUSAND!!!!! 24 thousand passed but with no assurance of a job..
There's no more room for new graduates and new nurse here... tsk tsk, but yet a lot still takes it...
:eek:oh my goodness, soon they'll be cursing out why they took the profession in the first place if they cant used it anyways...
Plus, it's even harder to get a job, if you're new in the field... goodluck!!!
This thread is getting so old. I can't vent about my bad day without being told that I have an attitude and that I am bitter. It's really sad how high and mighty some people act. Maybe the mods should just close this thread.
Why should we have to deal with a little B.S.? Sorry but the B.S. that nurses are dealing with today is what is causing the so-called nursing shortage. They are leaving because they no longer can or want to deal with it. This B.S. is what is keeping the nursing profession down. And those who say that we should deal with it are not helping the nursing profession get any better. It's pretty sad that we as nurses are so highly critical of each other. We should be united. We should be standing out in the streets screaming "I'm sick of being put down and spit on by administration"...
Sorry it irritates me and riles me up when people say that we should just deal with it.
There are definately 2 camps in this thread, it's a shame it seems to be a qualified / student divide.
How about another countries perspective on this. We have heard from the Phillipines and they have a huge problem with thousands more nurses than jobs.
The UK because of financial constraints does not increase the establishment of qualified nurses, this is because we are expensive and there are moves to try to increase the scope of the unqualified staff. I strongly believe we need to fight this and I think that the future of nursing lies in our hands. We need to look at both the students we are training and how to retain the staff we have, rather than delegating nursing care to unqualified staff.
We need the new and fresh nurses coming out of training, the new ideas, the challenging questions. There is no doubt about that, do we need to increase the amount we train, I don't think so. But without the experienced staff to teach and mentor these nurses then patient care is going to suffer.
As a ward manager I have a huge challenge in keeping my expereinced staff, they are demoralised and fed up, I wouldn't say burnt out because it's not the patient care that is a problem it's the constant battles with management (higher management that is) and the changing needs of our patients without increase in resources. There are more complaints, not because we are performing badly but because I think patient expectations are greater. There are definately sicker patients on the wards and with the developments in surgery and medicine the types of patients that survive and are placed at ward level is very different now.
Then we get our students, who I love, they challenge and keep us on our toes. The enthusiasm is fantastic, but sometimes the grasp of the whole picture is not always there, and it is up to us to teach them this but there is not always the time to do so.
Where is the compromise, I am not sure. I am lucky because my job is split between management and clinical, I can get away from the every day stresses of dealing with ward patients, I realise that I cannot give that to every nurse who works on my unit I wish I could.
Now think about the children who weren't allowed to visit their parents in the hospital... for months, sometimes. Think about the people who spent long hours alone between visiting hours. Our hospitals are and should be more patient-centered now.
There is one level of patient centered and then there is a point when it becomes a danger to the patient.
When "patient-centered" distractions occur to the point that it seriously impairs safety and pt health, it ceases to be health care and can turn into "death care".
I have no problem with well behaved children, but what parent brings a child to the ER with an 'emergency" cold in their heelies and lets them skate all over the ER, endangering themselves and others?
"Patient-centered" care means doing things best for the patient. Unrestricted visiting hours, and dealing with children that get fidgety after 10 minutes, when a grandparent is fresh postop or anxious, is not helpful or healing for the patient. I am a grandeparent and certainly don't want the cute little tikes around when I am drugged up, vomitting or undergoing a GI prep.
I have repeatedly dealt with visitors that do not know the word "NO". I have had hundreds of patients tell me to put up the "NO VISITORS" sign because they were exhausted, just to have pushy relatives sneak in with friends/yelling children at 2300. After politely reminded of the "No Visitor" request, we get the "Oh, s/he always wants to see ME!" (no, s/he doesn't).
And when visitors repeatedly interfere with the staff preping meds, they ARE endangering patient health.
Would one rather have their loved one alive, and receiving the right carefully prepared meds, relaxed and rested or dead/harmed from a med error, because the nurse was too busy, dodging kids, answering Uncle Bill's 13th call about wheter the pt will be able to play golf next week, or getting the "lightning" inservice on the hospital's 5 for 5 program.
I'll opt for the live patient rather than the dead/harmed one...even if it makes the visiting hours inconvenient for the visitors.
PS. I had a mother hospitalized for 5 weeks, in 1970 - I was 6. I dealt with not being to see her. I had a father overseas during Vietnam - and did not see or speak with him for 22 monthes - communicated only by letters and tapes. I survived as did they...learning to deal with such issues makes one stronger. And while I would never suggest being that strict again (people are not that disciplined anymore, I fear), some restrictions would be a good thing and would help the pt.
Now think about the children who weren't allowed to visit their parents in the hospital... for months, sometimes. Think about the people who spent long hours alone between visiting hours. Our hospitals are and should be more patient-centered now.
Patient-centered, NOT visitor centered. Myself and colleagues have ACTUALLY been thanked by patients on more than a few occassions for being the "bad guy" and insisting their visitors GO HOME. I also don't doubt some of those same visitors are still complaining about "Grandma's mean nurses" while Grandma sits there quietly thinking to herself (Yeah, I'm glad those "mean nurses" saw to it I got some rest:D).
We're not talking about separating children from parents for months, what we are talking about is having reasonable guidelines that are enforced so that patients can get adequate rest, the nurses can take care of the patient and not visitors. One patient's family should not be allowed to "take over the unit," and this is what happens when when management doesn't back the nurses when it comes to enforcing reasonable visitation policies.
One night I had six phone calls from security (in a four hour period) at the entrance regarding ONE patient's visitors, not to mention there were probably already 20 visitors already on the unit for that ONE patient that had taken over the visitor's lounge. Security wanted me to find the adult responsible for those "adolescents" downstairs pesting them to come to the unit. Everytime I paged a doctor for ANOTHER patient, security would be calling me and tieing up the line over this nonsense.
Another example. I had a patient that worked at the facility, in fact at one time we both worked in the same department. She was post-op, rough night vomiting all night. I asked her if she wanted me to put a sign on her door restricting visitors. She looked up at me, exhausted, and said "DusktilDawn would you." We both knew that there would be so many people that worked there that would want to pop in and visit. That night I was back and unfortunately she told me the sign probably helped, but a lot of people CHOOSE to ignore it. Well I happened to know some of the people who ignored this sign and I happened to be around when they we're scoffing about this sign and spouting off about who do the nurses think they are kind of crap. After listening to this BS I spoke up and said "First off, when nurses post those kinds of signs there's a reason and it's not to be B******, and second off, when we do post those kinds of signs it's with the person's consent and knowledge."
If all adults that visited hospitals could behave reasonably and with a modicem of consideration for others (and I mean the patient they visit, and other patients on the unit as well as the staff), there wouldn't be a need to have visitor guidelines and hours.
We don't want to deny patients visitors, we just want those visitors to behave like the adults they're supposed to be, and we want back up from administration when they don't.
I think we need new nurses because trying to make a life long career of beside nursing must be nearly impossible! I was a teacher and then I worked in various corporate jobs before getting my LPN in Dec '07; I will finish my RN in April '09. I was a CNA and I worked at a hospital long before I got my first bachelor's degree. My mother is a nurse, my cousin's are nurses, my aunt's are nurses...so I thought I knew what it would be like.
Ah, how wrong I was. You will never know what it's like until it's YOU standing in those shoes. On that day when you can longer say "I'll get his/her nurse I'm just a student/CNA/Whatever" then you will know.
Not to say that I am bitter because I am not. I'm still too new a nurse to have reached that point yet but I can't see working this dang hard for the rest of my life when there are easier ways to make a living. Yep I said it there are easier ways to make 60-70k a year then dealing with all that we have to deal with as nurses.
Going into the profession I thought "After only a year I can make (as an LPN) more than what my starting salary was a teacher with a bachelors degree and after 2 years I will make a lot more than that...what's not to like?
Well after less than a year I'm still going to finish the RN but with much less enthusiam then I had when I got my LPN because reality has set in.
I think what a lot of students don't understand is our LOVE/HATE relationship with nursing. I love it and I hate it at the same time.
I love the autonomy of my job...I love being in charge because it suits my personality type.
I love mentoring the CNAs who are in nursing school (I'm a born teacher)
I really do care about my resident's. Some of them are very difficult but they can also make you laugh and sometimes cry. Boy do I get sad when I come in for a shift to find out that Mr./Mrs. _____ got sent out or died. You really do get attached.
I also love the satisfaction of going home (sitting on the couch with my throbbing feet after a hot shower) and knowing that I have done something that actually matters.
What do I hate about nursing?
I hate some of the lazy co-workers I have to deal with.
I hate the uncaring administrators who give us very little to work with and then expect miracles.
I hate the constant addition of new paperwork because the state says we are deficient in a certain area. Instead of finding out why we are deficient and helping to correct the problem we just get a new form to fill out and threats of write ups for not being able to squeeze out more time to complete the paperwork.
I also hate non-nursing staff and other people who don't know squat about my job but think they do and aren't afraid to say it.
The SLP who comes on the floor to do a swallow eval and argues with me because he thinks I should advocate for a GT tube being placed on a hospice patient who is days away from dying from cancer.
The CNAs who don't seem to grasp the concept of patient rights and argue with me becuase I will not snatch away a cookie or soda from an AX0X3 resident who is a non-compliant diabetic.
The dietitian who's kitchen staff forgot to bring up so and so's tray and now expects me to close my med cart and go to the basement dining room to pick up a tray (and thinks I'm a B for refusing).
The family member who doesn't understand that me or my three aides do not have the time to leave the floor to get them sodas and chips just because they are paying a lot of money for granny to be there so now I am their personal slave. Never mind that I have residents who need meds, treatments, etc.
Then the icing on the cake...the 81lb, 98-year-old fully demented, GT feeder, who decides at precisely that moment to go bad and of course she is a full-code and her overly anxious son wants everything done for her.
Guess what's the best part of all of this. Those scenarios happened simultaneously and it was enough to make me wanna slam the cart drawer, scream, and run for the parking lot!
I could go on and on but I won't.
We do need more nurses and we will continue to need more nurses because until these working conditions get better nurses will continue to take every opportunity that they can to get away from direct patient care.
I no longer consider bedside nursing as something that my body will be able to do until I am 60ish. I'm already in my early 30s and despite being in pretty good shape I know that physically I cannot do more than 5-10 years of this.
I feel for the patients and maybe someday I will be one too but I'm not martyr and I will not be putting up with all of the crap for the rest of my working life.
I think we need new nurses because trying to make a life long career of beside nursing must be nearly impossible! I was a teacher and then I worked in various corporate jobs before getting my LPN in Dec '07; I will finish my RN in April '09. I was a CNA and I worked at a hospital long before I got my first bachelor's degree. My mother is a nurse, my cousin's are nurses, my aunt's are nurses...so I thought I knew what it would be like.
Ah, how wrong I was. You will never know what it's like until it's YOU standing in those shoes. On that day when you can longer say "I'll get his/her nurse I'm just a student/CNA/Whatever" then you will know.
Not to say that I am bitter because I am not. I'm still too new a nurse to have reached that point yet but I can't see working this dang hard for the rest of my life when there are easier ways to make a living. Yep I said it there are easier ways to make 60-70k a year then dealing with all that we have to deal with as nurses.
Going into the profession I thought "After only a year I can make (as an LPN) more than what my starting salary was a teacher with a bachelors degree and after 2 years I will make a lot more than that...what's not to like?
Well after less than a year I'm still going to finish the RN but with much less enthusiam then I had when I got my LPN because reality has set in.
I think what a lot of students don't understand is our LOVE/HATE relationship with nursing. I love it and I hate it at the same time.
I love the autonomy of my job...I love being in charge because it suits my personality type.
I love mentoring the CNAs who are in nursing school (I'm a born teacher)
I really do care about my resident's. Some of them are very difficult but they can also make you laugh and sometimes cry. Boy do I get sad when I come in for a shift to find out that Mr./Mrs. _____ got sent out or died. You really do get attached.
I also love the satisfaction of going home (sitting on the couch with my throbbing feet after a hot shower) and knowing that I have done something that actually matters.
What do I hate about nursing?
I hate some of the lazy co-workers I have to deal with.
I hate the uncaring administrators who give us very little to work with and then expect miracles.
I hate the constant addition of new paperwork because the state says we are deficient in a certain area. Instead of finding out why we are deficient and helping to correct the problem we just get a new form to fill out and threats of write ups for not being able to squeeze out more time to complete the paperwork.
I also hate non-nursing staff and other people who don't know squat about my job but think they do and aren't afraid to say it.
The SLP who comes on the floor to do a swallow eval and argues with me because he thinks I should advocate for a GT tube being placed on a hospice patient who is days away from dying from cancer.
The CNAs who don't seem to grasp the concept of patient rights and argue with me becuase I will not snatch away a cookie or soda from an AX0X3 resident who is a non-compliant diabetic.
The dietitian who's kitchen staff forgot to bring up so and so's tray and now expects me to close my med cart and go to the basement dining room to pick up a tray (and thinks I'm a B for refusing).
The family member who doesn't understand that me or my three aides do not have the time to leave the floor to get them sodas and chips just because they are paying a lot of money for granny to be there so now I am their personal slave. Never mind that I have residents who need meds, treatments, etc.
Then the icing on the cake...the 81lb, 98-year-old fully demented, GT feeder, who decides at precisely that moment to go bad and of course she is a full-code and her overly anxious son wants everything done for her.
Guess what's the best part of all of this. Those scenarios happened simultaneously and it was enough to make me wanna slam the cart drawer, scream, and run for the parking lot!
I could go on and on but I won't.
We do need more nurses and we will continue to need more nurses because until these working conditions get better nurses will continue to take every opportunity that they can to get away from direct patient care.
I no longer consider bedside nursing as something that my body will be able to do until I am 60ish. I'm already in my early 30s and despite being in pretty good shape I know that physically I cannot do more than 5-10 years of this.
I feel for the patients and maybe someday I will be one too but I'm not martyr and I will not be putting up with all of the crap for the rest of my working life.
I also don't doubt some of those same visitors are still complaining about "Grandma's mean nurses" while Grandma sits there quietly thinking to herself (Yeah, I'm glad those "mean nurses" saw to it I got some rest:D).
because I am not. I'm still too new a nurse to have reached that point yet but I can't see working this dang hard for the rest of my life when there are easier ways to make a living. Yep I said it there are easier ways to make 60-70k a year then dealing with all that we have to deal with as nurses. 
:yeah:
:bow:
Nurse Salt
330 Posts
BACK TO TOPIC:
This is why we need more nurses... Because some of us do not WANT to live with the little BS nonsense and if management and administration won't work with us, we move on, not necessarily using our RN licences. Then, yes, the BON stats say there are x amount of registered nurses so it looks as if there are enough, but since some of us WILL NOT learn to live with the BS, new nurses are needed to fill the places of those who no longer want to deal with it. Then is 5 or so years when they are fed up, a whole new crop will be needed to fill their spots... So, it really is just a revolving door, not all nurses will get fed up and leave, but to say we need to learn to live with the BS is to say "hey if someone is mistreating you, just learn to live with it, Oh, and don't complain":no:
We need to stand up for ourselves as nurses and NOT tolerate all the BS everyday, and when we learn to do that maybe MAYBE retention will be better and we THEN we won't need more nurses...