So, about two weeks ago I had a very unpleasant interaction with my patients primary provider. I was in the patients room with him and they were talking about the care plan, when the patient directly asked me a question. It was nothing medical related, and not anything relevant to what they had been talking about, but I answered the question. I then went to the nursing station to chart while they continued. The doctor came raging out and started to yell at me for undermining him in there. This is in front of about 15 people. According to him, I should not even talk when he is in with a patient. In the middle of his rant. I interrupted him and frankly said, " There is no reason for you to be so disrespectful towards me, and if there is anything else you need to let me know, feel free once you decide to behave like a professional." and left. I was later pulled aside by my charge (who witnessed the entire thing) and told that it was unprofessional for me to "point" and raise my voice in front of everyone.
I just cannot believe that I was pretty much being told not to stand up for myself.
I can't understand why the RN was in the room if she wasn't supposed to speak. Are we just decorations? It seems demeaning. Personally, I wouldn't go into rooms with this Dr. anymore. An RN's time is precious, too.
He's not your boss, and you're not subject to his whims. Even is he were your boss, he cannot speak to you like that. It depends on whether or not you want to let this drop, but you could put a complaint in writing, but once you put something in writing, it's official, and you never know what may come out. But if this story happened how you described it, you should be okay, but either way, it might make the work environment worse.
The physician is in charge of the patient's care, not the nurse. The physician has spent years in medical school, internships, residencies and specialty training. We are not peers, because we are not equals in our education and training. We are colleagues, as in we work together.
Semantics. You know what I was trying to say. We have different roles, but we have to work together WITH THE PATIENT in order to provide competent, excellent, patient care.
The truth of the matter, the doctor was having a busy/stressful day, or is just a jerk. He decided to use me as a punching bag and I put a stop to it. The patient didn't interrupt the doctor, and I think it is funny that so many people are saying I wasted the doctors precious time by talking for a few seconds, yet he has plenty of time to stop and berate me. He wasn't giving me constructive criticism, just being incredibly rude and disrespectful saying things like , "Can I get a nurse who knows what the hell she's doing?!" in front of soo many people, other nurses, other providers, visitors, and even other patients. Honestly the only thing I would have changed was pointing at him. I didn't put my hand in his face, and I never yelled. I spoke calmly and frankly because I am not afraid of doctors like so many of my peers. I did learn the procedure for reporting physicians for this type of behavior. And plan on reporting any future incidences.
And people, this is a different time. I agree and appreciate most of the advice that I was given, but for those of you who say to hold my tongue and let the doctor continue his verbal assault .....yeah, not going to happen. At the very least I would end the conversation by walking away.
Oh, and another thing, I am not worried at all about losing my job or retaliation over things like this. Our nurses are unionized and there is a very specific process if management wants to fire a nurse. I would at the very least need a documented verbal warning and written warning before I could be fired.
Newbie nurse. You have a good couple of decades ahead of you of dealing with doctors who will act like this.
If you pop and get defensive every single solitary time it happens, you will burn out of this career in a few short years.
Honestly? Keep your trap shut when they're around unless you need to provide input that ABSOLUTELY needs to be heard AT THAT MOMENT or it threatens the patient's SAFETY. Keep Maslow in mind.
And just get used to managers NEVER being on your side. It's nursing. It's reality.
I agree with most of what you are saying although I don't think managers are never on the side of nurses, but that they will not support a nurse who isn't responding in a professional manner. Hospitals will rarely side with anyone over a physician however.
To me like you said unless we are talking safety it is not worth it to get into a pissing match with a Doc. Nurses will never consistently win this paring and will eventually be thought of as difficult to work with. In my area despite being comprised of two decent sized cities Baltimore and Washington DC and a bazillion hospitals everyone knows everyone so imo it is never worth it to damage your reputation no matter how justified you might feel.
I'm not sure when "its a different time now" was officially instituted but at least where I have practiced the physicians remain at the top of the food chain. This does not mean they have license to treat anyone disrespectfully however acting as if they have no authority over nurses doesn't make sense to me. I considered them my superior as a floor nurse. Now as a as a NP I consider us more along the lines of peers but the truth is I am below them both in terms of education and position at the hospitals where I work and I will defer to them when push comes to shove. They essentially are my bosses and I felt that way as a RN also.
FWIW I immensely appreciate the nurses who are still gracious enough to allow me to see a patient when they are in the middle of something that can be postponed or offer me a computer when I'm attempting to do rounds on 30 patients and need to add a quick med order. On the flip side I rarely take someone's seat and try to see another patient if possible rather than interrupt a RNs tasks. The consideration and collegiality is most appreciated.
Overall my experience in thousands of interactions with many physicians have been positive so why get hung up on the outliers?
I'm going to deposit my two cents, after hearing more information and reading the many, well thought out responses.
I get the sense that the physician is under a lot of pressure and has a lot of new, wet behind the ears staff. He may very well have driven off other nurses due to his temper tantrums. He might be a COP (Crusty Old Physician), who has to deal with mandated computer systems that constantly crash, 15 minute allotted visits, and whippersnapper young nurses who want to call him by his first name.
After reading the OP's last post, I do suspect she might be wearing her attitude on her sleeve, and lack finesse. She's going to go report him! That'll teach the old codger. How dare he!
My advise is for the OP to cool her jets, try to get to know the docs and their idiosyncrasies, and see if she can make this job work for her. She won't do that by being rough and ready, this isn't a back alley somewhere, and if it was, the type of escalation that she indulged in is what leads to physical violence on the streets. She needs to learn, instead, how to deescalate stressful situations.
It may be that, after time, she finds this doctor impossible to work with. Then, don't go burning bridges, the nursing world is a small one.
I'd like to meet the MD who's involved in D/C planning and has any idea whether the patient will be transported by EMS, medical transport, shuttle, or cab. Referring that question to an MD in my hospital would make you and the MD both look silly, because they'd have to admit they had no idea, and then you'd have to decide whether to answer the question the MD didn't know or pretend you also have no idea.
My point was that by referring the question to the physician, the physician can choose to answer the question as he sees fit, or to defer the question. No-one is necessarily made to look silly.
The truth of the matter, the doctor was having a busy/stressful day, or is just a jerk. He decided to use me as a punching bag and I put a stop to it. The patient didn't interrupt the doctor, and I think it is funny that so many people are saying I wasted the doctors precious time by talking for a few seconds, yet he has plenty of time to stop and berate me. He wasn't giving me constructive criticism, just being incredibly rude and disrespectful saying things like , "Can I get a nurse who knows what the hell she's doing?!" in front of soo many people, other nurses, other providers, visitors, and even other patients. Honestly the only thing I would have changed was pointing at him. I didn't put my hand in his face, and I never yelled. I spoke calmly and frankly because I am not afraid of doctors like so many of my peers. I did learn the procedure for reporting physicians for this type of behavior. And plan on reporting any future incidences.
And people, this is a different time. I agree and appreciate most of the advice that I was given, but for those of you who say to hold my tongue and let the doctor continue his verbal assault .....yeah, not going to happen. At the very least I would end the conversation by walking away.
Oh, and another thing, I am not worried at all about losing my job or retaliation over things like this. Our nurses are unionized and there is a very specific process if management wants to fire a nurse. I would at the very least need a documented verbal warning and written warning before I could be fired.
OP, I can tell you are young. When you gain a little more life experience, you will see what we are trying to tell you. Choosing to not listen to your charge nurse's constructive criticism and failing to see your own responsibility in this will not help you. It's only going to hurt you in life down the road.
I wonder what the work environment will be like when my son chooses to start working? Will the generation of it's everyone else's problem and not me, thought process still be around. What will a world look like when nobody takes ownership of their problems? It worries me. I hope it is just a matter of people needing to mature. I see so many people come on here asking for advice, but they only want to hear people who agree with them an nothing more. They want to hear, Yes, you are right and those other people are jerks. It really makes me feel old to be thinking these things that maybe I'm becoming an old crotchety old-timer at the age of 39. I wonder if my parents and grandparents generation thought that of mine? Since, I am not adding anything to this conversation that the OP will at all listen to, I respectfully bow out of the conversation at this point. Is it even worth it to help people out in here anymore? Their minds about their specific situations are already made up, so me trying to offer another point of view is banging my head against the wall.
Going by your logic, the CNAs, unit secretaries, transporters, phlebotomists, and housekeepers should defer to my precious time with the patient. Can I yell at them all for calling me SEVEN times while I'm doing patient teaching? After all, I'm in charge of the patient's nursing care.
Thanks, makes my job a whole lot easier.
dudette10, please show me where in this thread I have said that anyone yelling at anyone is acceptable.
Semantics. You know what I was trying to say. We have different roles, but we have to work together WITH THE PATIENT in order to provide competent, excellent, patient care.
Use the dictionary. Look up the word "peer." You used it incorrectly. What I said was not "semantics." Also look up "semantics."
OP, I can tell you are young. When you gain a little more life experience, you will see what we are trying to tell you. Choosing to not listen to your charge nurse's constructive criticism and failing to see your own responsibility in this will not help you. It's only going to hurt you in life down the road.
I wonder what the work environment will be like when my son chooses to start working? Will the generation of it's everyone else's problem and not me, thought process still be around. What will a world look like when nobody takes ownership of their problems? It worries me. I hope it is just a matter of people needing to mature. I see so many people come on here asking for advice, but they only want to hear people who agree with them an nothing more. They want to hear, Yes, you are right and those other people are jerks. It really makes me feel old to be thinking these things that maybe I'm becoming an old crotchety old-timer at the age of 39. I wonder if my parents and grandparents generation thought that of mine? Since, I am not adding anything to this conversation that the OP will at all listen to, I respectfully bow out of the conversation at this point. Is it even worth it to help people out in here anymore? Their minds about their specific situations are already made up, so me trying to offer another point of view is banging my head against the wall.
I actually found your posts useful. I started off completely disagreeing with you but some of your posts and others really helped explain the other side of the story. I hope you will continue posting on topics.
I started off completely on the side that the OP was ok to blast the physician as I have a bit of a quick temper, and the situation described would make me pretty ticked. But after reading all of the responses I hope when something similar happens to me I can hold my tongue and address it more professionally.
I did have a physician really go off on me once, and I was so startled that I didn't respond. Then a few days later I pulled him aside and told him I felt he owed me an apology. He did apologize, and I looked like the bigger person (although I really was not since it was just surprise that rendered me speechless).
ktwlpn, LPN
3,844 Posts