The government (military and VA) differentiate between nurses with an ADN and those with a BSN. The ANA differentiates between them, but the civilian industry does not. If the civilian hospitals ever decided that there isn't a nursing shortage and only show interest in hiring those with BSNs, all the junior colleges will dry up overnight.
I personally knew a captain in the Air Force a while back (I think it was a previous life :) ) who only had an ADN. But at that time the military really needed nurses, so they commissoned ADNs not on their eductaion but on their professional liscense of RN.
It all depends on how bad they need nurses. End the nursing shortage with a bad economy and you'll end the ADN as an entry-level degree to professional nursing.
What do you guys do on your 2 days? Have you started passing meds yet? I know the schedule must be different for the semesters vs quarters. Ours is 7 quarters. So, we don't do meds til next quarter.
What do you guys do on your 2 days? Have you started passing meds yet? I know the schedule must be different for the semesters vs quarters. Ours is 7 quarters. So, we don't do meds til next quarter.
Thanks,
Beginning BSN student
Yes, we pass meds. We do all the nursing care for our patients. Although, I must say, we haven't made any beds yet. I have yet to see the nurses at the hospital I'm at make a bed, not that they wouldn't do it, just that I haven't seen it being done. My rotation right now is Maternal Child. So far I've been in on a C-section and recovery of the mother and baby, I've done 3 days of postpartum care and next week it will be Labor and Delivery again and then my clinicals are finished for this semester. I love it!
I once saw on a website (I dont remember where I read this, but it was not anything like ANA) that the entry level for a nurse should be MSN!!! Yeah right!!! I dont think that ADN's are going to be phased out, but in my area there are some hospitals that are only hiring new grad BSN's and not new grad ADN's. Why is this??? I dont know. Is it right? No. This is just the way it is. I hope this does not become a trend, because we need good nurses whether ADN or BSN to fill the shortage! Do I think that BSN are better than ADN? No, not particularly. Someone once told me that although we all pass the same state boards, all that means is that we all are able to demonstrate minimum competency to practice. That does not mean that we are educated at the same level and that its the same thing. Just some food for thought.
I once saw on a website (I dont remember where I read this, but it was not anything like ANA) that the entry level for a nurse should be MSN!!! Yeah right!!! I dont think that ADN's are going to be phased out, but in my area there are some hospitals that are only hiring new grad BSN's and not new grad ADN's. Why is this??? I dont know. Is it right? No. This is just the way it is. I hope this does not become a trend, because we need good nurses whether ADN or BSN to fill the shortage! Do I think that BSN are better than ADN? No, not particularly. Someone once told me that although we all pass the same state boards, all that means is that we all are able to demonstrate minimum competency to practice. That does not mean that we are educated at the same level and that its the same thing. Just some food for thought.
I've had an instructor that told us that she's heard the same thing (about the MSN). And I agree with you about the last few things you said also. I don't want anyone to be affended, but I think it's awful that typically ADN's and BSN's earn the same income in a hospital. I think that just like any other profession it should be the person with more education that earns more money even if they are performing the same duty. To me, that just makes sense.
I think one of the reasons you always hear that ASN programs prepare you better clinically is that many of the old diploma programs, which were 3 years and had more clinicals than the current ASN or BSN were phased out and some became ASN programs and the reputation followed them. I started with a ASN and felt we received good clinical training, but when I went back to get my BSN I realized I did not take such classes as health assessment, pathophys. , biochem., research and hardly did any writing, as opposed to writing many papers in the BSN program. And by the way, the ASN and BSN programs were from the same nusing college. So yes, I do believe you receive a broader educatiion in a BSN program, but most ASN programs do prepare you well clinically and to pass the boards just as well as many of the BSN programs. The biggest difference I noticed was that the BSN education prepares you better for the next level of education, mainly graduate school, as opposed to the ASN program. For example, you could have graduated the ASN program I was in, even if your writing skills were not at the college level because we had very few papers to write. As opposed to the BSN program, where you were expected to know how to write at the collegiate level or you were not going to graduate. You may ask what does writing well have to do with bedside nursing? Especially since we write in our own abbreviated medical jargon most of the time. But if you want to go to next level of education or be considered college educated by othe college educated professions good writing skills are essential. Just my humble opion, from a person who has experienced both pathways of education in nursing.
I once saw on a website (I dont remember where I read this, but it was not anything like ANA) that the entry level for a nurse should be MSN!!!
Gallop (I believe) did a poll of the public as to what level education they felt was adequate for nursing - the MSN was what ranked most popular.
Now, if they would just go back and poll them as to which ones of them would go to school for six years and to get out in a job field where you get treated like we do........I wonder how many of them would volunteer to join us?
The AD(Science)N program from which I graduated 27 years ago posted the highest overall scores on the State Boards in the state (California) every year. I've no idea about the last 26 years though! After graduating and landing my first job in L & D, we actually complained and won when they wanted to offer the BSN's and MSN's an extra 5% and 10% extra in pay.
Now before the flames start flying, that was only for the RN's working the floor. Our premise was and mine still is this: if you are doing the same job as the person next to you, the only thing you get more pay for is: years of experience. Unless you are using your BSN or MSN to do something other than pass meds, change foleys, or what the usual bedside nursing duties are, then do not expect a pay incentive just because you went to school longer.
The absolute only way I would go on to get more letters behind my RN, ADN would be if I wanted to go into teaching or management, neither of which interests me at all. I'd really have to work hard at calling my patients, "clients."
I believe it was rstewart who prompted my response. I told some nursing friends lately that I think part of the nursing shortage problem would be solved if more hospitals would begin or resurrect their hospital diploma programs for nursing education. My sister started at a diploma program, worked as a nurse many years under that cloak, then became a CRNA. I don't believe she "had" to get a BSN or MSN along the way. If she did, I didn't know about and still don't as she's far more proud of the CRNA.
I work with nurses who came from all kinds of programs, and continually feel that the best education you get is on the floor after you graduate! Some of the best teachers I ever had were two nursing assistants who collectively had 50 years experience to my none. They taught me more in a year than 10 years of school or any degree could ever have done. I think of them often how they guided me to the right room at the right time.
In my experience, both recent and in the past, it's the BSN (young BSN) who has this idea that her skills/thought process/demeanor/whatever is superior to those of anybody else on the floor...and that we should automatically defer to her 'knowledge' because of the alphabet behind her name. Respect is earned. And that is one thing some people didn't learn in school and in fact, I don't recall that topic being broached at all. Sadly.
Most of the time, I just do my work with my fellow nurses without a thought as to how they obtained their RN status. It's not really in my job description to determine if one is qualified or not to do the job. However, when we get new fresh out of school nurses who are interning, the topic of BSN comes up: from the new BSN. (Anybody seen that commercial for FED EX where the shipping office supervisor asks the MBA to tend to the computer shipping because they are swamped and after he says, "you don't understand, I have an MBA." "Oh, you have an MBA. I guess I'll have to show you how to do it." ) That's how I feel sometimes. I do not question the new people about their background, but believe me it usually is made known.
Unlike some others, I enjoy reading these discussions. I find it useful for myself as a reminder to not judge the degree but rather the work ethics and abilities of the nurse.
I also find it very interesting that some of the posters who are not even in a nursing program have such strong convictions about what is right, what is wrong and how the wrong can be corrected. Like we haven't already been trying to do that for decades!
Okay, here's a dumb question. Why are ADN nurses supposedly better prepared clinically than BSN nurses? I'm not trying to stir the pot here, I'm just curious.
I am in a BSN program now. This is first quarter, and we spend one day a week on the hospital floor. 2nd quarter we also do 1 day a week, and then move up to 2 or 3 days a week clinicals.
In 9 weeks, I have changed beds, done bed baths, accompanied a patient to an endoscopy (and got to watch), changed dressing on venous ulcers, administered oxygen, done vitals, watched a humungous crater of a pressure sore being dressed. Other fellow students have suctioned trach tubes and flushed G-tubes. Next quarter we administer meds.
I have had patients with strokes, patients who are unresponsive, one patient who kept taking off his oxygen till his O2 sat was 70, and one patient with late stage AIDs, possible MAC TB, hepatitis C, and shingles, in a negative pressure room with contact and
droplet precautions.
We also have 1 hour of lab lecture, 2 hours of lab (you know, put the foley in the dummy), and lab skill validations. Plus pathophysiology, nutrition, and foundations of nursing.
So, is this less than what ADNs do? Or does my program give us a lot of clinical experience? I dunno, but it seems like I have sure done a lot already.
Any feedback?
Thanks,
Beginning BSN student
Actually your BSN program sounds great; I like the idea of slowly transitioning clinical skills in. You first get to focus on baths, bed making,dressing changes, vitals and then you can focus on meds and you slowly make the transition from one day to two to three days. At my BSN program, we started out with clinical two days a week with 2 patients, doing everything from baths to meds. It's overwhelming at first like that. I don't know how much clinical time ADN's get, but I also think that working as a tech on the floor gives student nurses a lot of experience to become future nurses.
I think that just like any other profession it should be the person with more education that earns more money even if they are performing the same duty. To me, that just makes sense.
Maybe I would feel differently is I was a BSN instead of an ASN. I have mixed feelings about it. In addition to my ASN, I also have an EMT-P (11 years) ACLS (11years) CPI-I,PALS, BLS-I, AMLS-I and TNCC. I don't get any extra money for these initials either.
In fact, my boyfiend and I started out at the same pay rate when we were hired right out of school despite the fact that I had been a medic since 1990, and employed at the hospital since 1988. He wasn't a medic and had only been employed at the hospital less than 2 years. I didn't think that was fair at all, as I had much more experience than he did in the emergency medical field.
Like I said, I have mixed feelings about it, however, I would be extremely offended if a BSN was hired in fresh out of school making more than I do because they had the time and resources to get thier BSN; which I did not. Usually though fresh grads are not hired in the ER, no matter what level they graduated at, if they have never had any experience in the ER setting.
I think it is great if you have the time and resources to get a BSN, but for those of us who don't, I don't think we should be docked because of it. I think time, experience and extra training should be rewarded though.
I think it is great if you have the time and resources to get a BSN, but for those of us who don't, I don't think we should be docked because of it. I think time, experience and extra training should be rewarded though.
I don't have the resources, trust me. It's all on scholarship. I already had an assoiciates degree and just didn't want another one. Not only that, the waiting list at the community colleges around here are rediculous and it would take me a lot longer to get my ADN than it will be to get my BSN. (Two more reasons why I'm getting my BSN). Thanks for your input!
When I saw the title of this discussion, I thought it might be someone saying" why do we have this debate."Why can't we respect each other as colleagues with the same professional license and the same professional responsibilities.That it doesn't matter which initials are after your name, and that the only thing that determines what kind of a nurse you are is the care that you give.When I see a nurse write things that imply that an ADN or I would assume you would also feel that a diploma grad are somehow inferior to a BSN nurse, I'm sad for our profession.I have worked with excellent LPN,ADN and diploma nurses,they bring skill ,compassion and diversity to our profession. I know many nurses who couldn't have become nurses if they had had to fulfill BSN requirements, because thay have families or other responsibilities.It's time for us to stop this only a BSN is a professional nurse nonsense and to value all of the members of our profession.
When I saw the title of this discussion, I thought it might be someone saying" why do we have this debate."Why can't we respect each other as colleagues with the same professional license and the same professional responsibilities.That it doesn't matter which initials are after your name, and that the only thing that determines what kind of a nurse you are is the care that you give.When I see a nurse write things that imply that an ADN or I would assume you would also feel that a diploma grad are somehow inferior to a BSN nurse, I'm sad for our profession.I have worked with excellent LPN,ADN and diploma nurses,they bring skill ,compassion and diversity to our profession. I know many nurses who couldn't have become nurses if they had had to fulfill BSN requirements, because thay have families or other responsibilities.It's time for us to stop this only a BSN is a professional nurse nonsense and to value all of the members of our profession.
oldiebutgoodie, RN
643 Posts
Thanks for the reply, Jennifer.
What do you guys do on your 2 days? Have you started passing meds yet? I know the schedule must be different for the semesters vs quarters. Ours is 7 quarters. So, we don't do meds til next quarter.
Thanks,
Beginning BSN student