When Staff members don't get along!

gt4everpn, BSN, RN · Dec 25, 2007

i have been a victim of this ''horizontal violence'' since i was in nrsg school, i remember going to clinicals and certain staff nurses being so mean to us, one nurse even refused to show anything to us, flat out refused!!!, then as a new grad also, but now i don't experience any of this at my facility, as least so far!! we all need to remember work is work, personal issues shouldn't cloud professionalism!

caliotter3 · Dec 25, 2007

Each and every work place where I have been has had this behavior in one form or another, to one degree or another. I've seen new employees literally run off by the negative, bullying behavior directed at them. It made me wonder if they would be able to find a place where they could work at all. In order to stop this, the individual must take some kind of action. As long as you stay silent and let the crowd speak for you, you are part of the problem. That is what I found everywhere. The group acts and talks. Nobody defies the group.

I've always done my best to help new people and to see that they were properly oriented. I answer questions to the best of my ability and try to warn people when I think I see them getting into trouble. I've gone as far as calling a person at home to warn them about something at work. This is something I normally wouldn't do, because I don't socialize with coworkers. But I don't think anyone should come to work the next day and get pounced on by the mean DON, who was asking questions the evening before. As long as I make efforts in this direction, I feel that I've done my part. I can't force others to change their behavior. I can only control my own.

NursePaula · Dec 25, 2007

I have worked in a very hostile environment before, tried many times to take it to the "higher ups", to no avail. Actually started to believe it was me, went to counselling, changed jobs, and then figured out when 3/6 nurses and a MSW also quit there, that it wasn't all on me. I hear they have a new NM, fired 2 of the nurses and things have improved greatly, but never will consider going there again, even if I think in my heart that Hospice was my calling...unfortunately, I think that whole experience has made me a little more cautious about my co-workers. I try very hard to get along with everyone, I love when students are on the floor and always glad when they are assigned to my patients, even though it does take more time, the interaction with them always makes me think, and I am also very welcoming to the "new guy". I have found also that sometimes to be welcoming all it takes is a big smile and a hello...no work at all!!!

pagandeva2000, LPN · Dec 25, 2007

I have witnessed such behavior for years. Somehow, though, I have not personally been a victim of this situation, but it does not mean that it can not or will not happen to me. It is horrible to witness, and it seems to be to me that in the majority of cases, these bullies have the support of the managers and administration; especially in jobs that have unions. It is hard to fire people for misbehavior at my job. It almost reminds me of the HBO series "Oz"...a jailhouse setting.

I do try and orient people and make them feel comfortable because being new is a scary experience. Being a new grad is even worse. I have only been an LPN for a bit over a year, and sometimes, I was afraid to spread my wings to other places because of the possibility of experiencing this hazing-like behavior. What makes it worse for nurses is that our licenses and the lives of the patients are on the line. When you are new, you are counting on these same people to assist you with learning a complicated skill, to help save the life of a patient who is going down and for advice. People are blackballed from seeking employment elsewhere sometimes, making it even harder.

No wonder people leave nursing, which, unfortunately, the domino effect is usually that the patients that need us at the bedside suffer.

Miss Mab · Dec 26, 2007

What i always find most odd about this disturbing topic is that so many nurses will loudly and definitively proclaim that horizontal violence or "eating our young" simply doesn't exist.

Not that they personally haven't seen it or have no other firsthand knowledge about such behavior. Or that it doesn't happen in their own workplace.

But that it doesn't exist period.

I just find that so odd and, frankly, an extension of the same behaviors.

I'm pretty certain we all learned back in Psych101 that one of the most damaging things you can do to a person is invalidate their stated experience with no independent knowledge of your own. (think of little one saying so and so touched me for one sad example. "No he didn't. Never happened. What did you do to cause it?") In other words, tell them their feelings are wrong and otherwise completely negate their reality.

I don't know---I just think that's really weird.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Dec 26, 2007

what i always find most odd about this disturbing topic is that so many nurses will loudly and definitively proclaim that horizontal violence or "eating our young" simply doesn't exist.
not that they personally haven't seen it or have no other firsthand knowledge about such behavior. or that it doesn't happen in their own workplace.
.

i despise the phrase "nurses eat their young," because it implies several things that are completely untrue: first that it's only the young who are exposed to horizontal violence, which isn't true. second because it implies that only in nursing does such a thing occur -- also untrue. and third because it implies that those being "eaten" are helpless, hapless and innocent. in most of the cases of horizontal violence i've witnessed, the person being "abused" has contributed as much to the problem as the "abuser." they either don't realize it or aren't willing to admit it.

we've all see the newbies come to this board and complain that they're hapless victims of nurses eating their young. they've been out of school for less than a year and they're on their fourth job and there are clouds of mean people following them around from job to job. or someone in the know has advised them that everyone hates them because they're beautiful. or they've tried and tried to get along with the old dinosauers they work with, but "you can't teach an old dog new tricks." how many of us actually believe that these folks are innocent newbies about to become dinner for some old dinosauer?

i won't deny that horizontal violence (or lateral violence) exists in the work place. it exists in every job -- from the military to accounting to the law to law enforcement to sales to libraries to congress. (and those are just the careers i know about). i'd like to completely do away with the phrase "nurses eat their young" because so many nurses who lack coping skills, stress management skills, knowledge base or good work habits seize upon that phrase and use it to explain away any attempts their new co-workers make to socialize them into the unit. "it's not that i'm an arrogant witch who won't accept correction even when i've almost killed a patient. it's that nurses eat their young. everyone knows that!"

Ruby Vee, BSN · Dec 26, 2007

i have witnessed such behavior for years. somehow, though, i have not personally been a victim of this situation, but it does not mean that it can not or will not happen to me. it is horrible to witness, and it seems to be to me that in the majority of cases, these bullies have the support of the managers and administration; especially in jobs that have unions. it is hard to fire people for misbehavior at my job. it almost reminds me of the hbo series "oz"...a jailhouse setting.

i agree with you that in the majority of cases of lateral violence, the bullies have the support of management and administration. often, they're the people the manager was friends with before becoming the manager. sometimes the manager is so bogged down by other concerns of her new job that she just doesn't notice and other times she doesn't see it as a problem. sometimes she sees it as a problem but has no idea how to fix it, so concentrates on other concerns instead.

for many years, my husband was a union representative for a nursing union, accompanying nurses to formal and informal disciplinary meetings. what he found was that almost invariably in cases where the disciplined nurse was screaming that "nurses eat their young!" there was a pattern of ill-behavior on the part of the disciplined nurse leading up to the meeting. they didn't fit in at their job and hadn't tried to, instead expecting their co-workers to accomodate them. they made errors, the same errors over and over without learning from their mistakes. they seemed oblivious to the honest attempts their managers and assistant managers had made to correct them, socialize them and educate them and saw it instead as harassing or picking on them.

dh says that in the few cases of bullying he saw where the nurse hadn't brought it upon himself/herself, it was usually management-sanctioned bullying of an older nurse at the top of the pay scale to get them to move on so the manager could hire newbies at a much smaller salary. and for the most part, they quietly moved on when the abuse became intolerable. the people who were really being picked on for no good reason aren't the ones screaming "nurses eat their young." they're the ones looking at themselves and their own behavior to see what they contributed to the problem and trying to fix that.

Atheos · Dec 26, 2007

i agree with you that in the majority of cases of lateral violence, the bullies have the support of management and administration. often, they're the people the manager was friends with before becoming the manager. sometimes the manager is so bogged down by other concerns of her new job that she just doesn't notice and other times she doesn't see it as a problem. sometimes she sees it as a problem but has no idea how to fix it, so concentrates on other concerns instead.
for many years, my husband was a union representative for a nursing union, accompanying nurses to formal and informal disciplinary meetings. what he found was that almost invariably in cases where the disciplined nurse was screaming that "nurses eat their young!" there was a pattern of ill-behavior on the part of the disciplined nurse leading up to the meeting. they didn't fit in at their job and hadn't tried to, instead expecting their co-workers to accomodate them. they made errors, the same errors over and over without learning from their mistakes. they seemed oblivious to the honest attempts their managers and assistant managers had made to correct them, socialize them and educate them and saw it instead as harassing or picking on them.
dh says that in the few cases of bullying he saw where the nurse hadn't brought it upon himself/herself, it was usually management-sanctioned bullying of an older nurse at the top of the pay scale to get them to move on so the manager could hire newbies at a much smaller salary. and for the most part, they quietly moved on when the abuse became intolerable. the people who were really being picked on for no good reason aren't the ones screaming "nurses eat their young." they're the ones looking at themselves and their own behavior to see what they contributed to the problem and trying to fix that.

that's quite an over-generalization. i seriously doubt that in the majority of the cases the lateral violence was caused by the victims. that's like saying most rape victims caused it.

most lateral violence occurs naturally in situations where people are oppressed and abused. the fact that this happens more in female dominated industries is not a coincidence. women have been oppressed and abused for quite a long time. every time you look in your favorite history book you will see this same behavior. slaves abusing other slaves, nazi collaborators, ad nauseum.

this is a naturally occurring behavior and the only way to stop it is to get rid of the triggers. better work conditions, more support from administration, zero tolerance for work place violence (including harassment and other nonphysical manifestations). blaming people is just another part of the cycle. break the cycle.

gonzo1, ASN, RN · Dec 26, 2007

We have recently lost several nurses at work due to a charge nurse that brags she can make agency and travel nurses cry at will. (gross oversimplification) One of the nurses went and complained to management and was fired. Charge nurse still there. Pretty soon there will be no one left on night shift.

My contract ends in 4 weeks and I can't wait. She did try this crap with me and I just laughed her off and haven't had a problem since.

If predators like this sense your vulnerabilities they will continue to strike.

dorselm · Dec 26, 2007

I am in nursing school and already I have suffered from nurses eating their young. A few months ago on my first clinical assignment, I had a patient who was suffering from compartment syndrome. The nursing coordinator for the floor came in along with the patient's nurse to try to help the patient. The nursing coordinator told me to go get some ice for the cast. The kitchen was being remodeled so there was a cooler full of ice in the supply room and the cooler was open. The ice had formed a large hard block so I had to break the ice. There was a ceramic cup beside the cooler so I took it and broke off a few pieces of ice to fill the ice bag. Come to find out the patient needed the cast removed but I got the ice as I was instructed. So I went back into the nursing student lounge which was right next to the nurses' station. Next thing I know I hear all of this hollering "WHO USED MY CUP????" I came out and the nursing coordinator was in the middle of the nurses station surrounded by all of these nurses and she was shouting. So I fessed up to it. She looks at me and screams "YOU USED MY CUP, WHO TOLD YOU TO USE MY CUP??? " I said I didn't see a name on it I needed to get ice for my patient. Still screaming she said "WELL YOU DON'T DO THAT OH GREAT NOW WE"RE GONNA NEED NEW ICE BECAUSE SOMEBODY CONTAMINATED IT, YOU NEED TO THINK NEXT TIME" I was so embarrassed I just walked away.

I was considering working on this floor but I would not be able to put up with that.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Dec 26, 2007

that's quite an over-generalization. i seriously doubt that in the majority of the cases the lateral violence was caused by the victims. that's like saying most rape victims caused it.
most lateral violence occurs naturally in situations where people are oppressed and abused. the fact that this happens more in female dominated industries is not a coincidence. women have been oppressed and abused for quite a long time. every time you look in your favorite history book you will see this same behavior. slaves abusing other slaves, nazi collaborators, ad nauseum.
this is a naturally occurring behavior and the only way to stop it is to get rid of the triggers. better work conditions, more support from administration, zero tolerance for work place violence (including harassment and other nonphysical manifestations). blaming people is just another part of the cycle. break the cycle.

i'm not "blaming the victim." i'm saying that those who are screaming "nurses eat their young" the loudest have been, in my experience and the experience of my dh, those who have contributed the most to the negative experiences they're having with their co-workers. lateral violence or bullying does occur and there are many innocent victims. those victims, however, aren't usually the ones screaming "nurses eat their young."