I was talking to my Step Father today. His ex-wife (the one before my mom) died. She had gone to the doctor for a routine checkup, she wasn't feeling sick at all. She had a low white count when they did the labwork.
The doctor decided to put her in the hospital for a battery of tests, maybe because she was over 80. I don't know her medical history, but he told me that she was healthy and feeling fine when she went in.
In the hospital, she got sicker and sicker with each test. She ended up with pneumonia, ended up on a ventilator, and then she died.
It makes me sick, because I know what hospitals are like. Staff is rushed, housekeeping sometimes does a poor job, nurses are busy filling our pain flow sheets, fall assessment sheets, careplans, documenting in triplicate, defensive charting up the ying yang.
There is a shortage of staff and a shortage of time.
Yes, this lady sounds as if she were neutropenic. Maybe it was a side effect of a medication she was on. But, it sounds like going to the hospital killed her.
I belive with my heart of hearts that my Grandfather died just because he went into the hospital in Summer of 02.
My grandfather was a great man, yes he had emphysema, yes he was SOB and yes he was 91. He also was a chronic alcohlic for at least 30+years. He would start the day with a beer and end it with Crown Royal. Now he was not a stumbly drunk at all, really you could not even tell he was drunk, he was completly functioning.
So a family member decided she really needed to take him to the ER for his SOB one day---he walked to the car and walked into the ER. They did admit him over night for obs and breathing treatments q4. During assessment he informed them he was a "social drinker" they had no idea how much he drank. By that night he had begun DTs. The nursing staff assumed it was something else, maybe age related, something unknown. It was 2 days later when he now was hallucenting that the truth came out about his drinking. THe Dr ordered him beer. But by this time he coudlnt even really drink it.
He ended up dying a few days later with complete organ failure.
Because the family- my family was not honest about his drinking, the staff had no idea.
I think of him when ever i hear the words "social drinker" and if my patient states that during assessment, I dig much deeper. I am not being judegmental or nosey, I just need to know what all we are dealing with.
We're d&%ned if we do, d&%ned if we don't apparently.
My hospital is not understaffed, but beds are too precious to admit an otherwise healthy woman just because her white count was a little low. Follow up can certainly be done on an outpt basis for something like that. Our case manager would have had her out the door the next morning, regardless of what the physician thought. Unless he could justify her admission, she'd have been discharged for outpt follow up.
Either her hospital has a different philosophy, the pt or family insisted on the admission (which happens so much I can't believe it is even allowed), or there was something else going on. Could there have been a suspicious chest xray; could they have wanted to run a couple of days of IV abx? Were some other lab values out of range?
I'm really sorry for your loss. I can't help but wonder what your response would have been if she had died four days after labwork showed something out of the ordinary but she had NOT been admitted to the hospital. Would you or your family have been upset then that they didn't admit her to do more tests?
I think it is human to want to blame someone, and for sure, there are times where there is a person or a circumstance to blame. I'm not saying there wasn't a nosocomial infection to blame; but how are you so 100% certain that it WAS? Why doesn't every 80 healthy year old woman admitted for observation die of nosocomial infection? Why does a 30 year old end up with one? Why am I elbow deep in c diff on a regular basis, but I have yet to contract it or bring it home? Where the heck did my family get pertussis (not me, though) two years ago--did I carry it home, or did they pick it up in the community?
Medicine isn't perfect, but neither are our bodies==they don't present or respond in a textbook manner.
I guess what stings me about your post is that one of our own, who knows this, is 100% blaming the hospital, the nurses, and the doctor for the death. I expect that in family who aren't familiar with the ins and outs of the human condition; but it hurts coming from a fellow nurse.
jlsRN, I'm sorry for your & your stepfather's loss.
But even if this woman was "feeling fine" aka asymptomatic when she was admitted, a low WBC count, possibly critically low, is certainly an indication that all was not "fine." Neutropenia is not a "normal" condition.
With the limited information that has been provided here, this is kind of like my patient from a few years ago who was "fine" -- no hx, no meds -- who came to the ER after having a seizure at work. She had never had a seizure before. CT revealed a sizable mass in her brain. She died 3 weeks later.
Did the hospital kill her? No -- her condition which set in motion the course of events that brought her to the hospital killed her.
I have an issue with the 'blame' factor here. Yes, I can't deny that hospitals are full of nasty buggies and people do get nosocomial infections. But the 91 year old COPD/alcoholic patient is GOING to die regardless of whether or not he/she is admitted to the hospital. It is wrong to place the 'blame' for his death on the hospital. He was elderly, for one, AND he was a train wreck health wise. I'm sorry for the losses, but 80 and 90 year old people are OLD. They WILL die......and we WILL miss them, but to try to 'blame' someone for their deaths is senseless. We don't live forever. Sorry if I sound harsh, but I get soooo tired of family blaming healthcare people for the death of someone who is at that stage of life where death naturally occurs.
hospitals are the most germ infested environments short of the CDC.....do you think that's why we ask that kids and babies dont visit?......hmmmm funny thing though, the people who have to work in such environments DON'T GET SICK TIME!.....i'm sorry for your loss. a low white count doesn't bode well for a person in a hospital. it just lets her open for soooo many things.
Thanks, I'm glad to hear an affirmation of my feelings.
Incidentally, I'm bringing this up as a general topic, I obviously haven't looked at this woman's chart. What I do know is that she was a very consciencious woman who cared about her health and lived a healthy lifestyle. My stepbrother, her son, is a chiropractor and very knowledgable, and I'm sure he is looking into this, but what I've heard is that she was in her usual state of health, went for a routine checkup, was admitted to the hospital for tests to investigate her low white blood count, and was dead in 12 days from pneumonia.
I'm seeing a lot of denial and fingerpointing on this thread that frankly makes me feel totally unvalidated. Yes, this woman was elderly, but I'll tell you what, hospitals are busy places where superbugs live. Staff is overworked and bogged down in paperwork and charting. Housekeeping is underpaid and often does sloppy work, staff often takes shortcuts because they are pressed for time.
Nosocomial infections kill human beings with families and friends left behind.
I have an issue with the 'blame' factor here. Yes, I can't deny that hospitals are full of nasty buggies and people do get nosocomial infections. But the 91 year old COPD/alcoholic patient is GOING to die regardless of whether or not he/she is admitted to the hospital. It is wrong to place the 'blame' for his death on the hospital. He was elderly, for one, AND he was a train wreck health wise. I'm sorry for the losses, but 80 and 90 year old people are OLD. They WILL die......and we WILL miss them, but to try to 'blame' someone for their deaths is senseless. We don't live forever. Sorry if I sound harsh, but I get soooo tired of family blaming healthcare people for the death of someone who is at that stage of life where death naturally occurs.
Sorry you're so tired of this. I didn't hear a lot of blame from my stepfather. Nor did I hear him call a lawyer when my mother got sent home and told to take aspirin for the splitting headache and flu symptoms that turned out to be a subarachnoid bleeding anurysm that ended up killing her.
What I notice is a lot of fingerpointing and blame by nurses on this thread. "Oh, she was elderly, she didn't take care of herself, she didn't follow medical advise, she neglected her health".
There's a lot of denial and defensiveness on this thread.
but what I've heard is that she was in her usual state of health, went for a routine checkup, was admitted to the hospital for tests to investigate her low white blood count, and was dead in 12 days from pneumonia.
She was admitted with leukopenia -- an indication of a problem despite the fact that she felt well. The leukopenia would significantly predispose her to pneumonia and other infections.
I'm just asking ... would you typically expect an 80-year old with leukopenia to remain asymptomatic indefinitely?
Thanks, I'm glad to hear an affirmation of my feelings.
Incidentally, I'm bringing this up as a general topic, I obviously haven't looked at this woman's chart. What I do know is that she was a very consciencious woman who cared about her health and lived a healthy lifestyle. My stepbrother, her son, is a chiropractor and very knowledgable, and I'm sure he is looking into this, but what I've heard is that she was in her usual state of health, went for a routine checkup, was admitted to the hospital for tests to investigate her low white blood count, and was dead in 12 days from pneumonia.
I'm seeing a lot of denial and fingerpointing on this thread that frankly makes me feel totally unvalidated. Yes, this woman was elderly, but I'll tell you what, hospitals are busy places where superbugs live. Staff is overworked and bogged down in paperwork and charting. Housekeeping is underpaid and often does sloppy work, staff often takes shortcuts because they are pressed for time.
Nosocomial infections kill human beings with families and friends left behind.
I am sorry you feel "invalidated" because the posters did not automatically agree with your point of view. I am not sure what you wanted with the very limited amount of information given. Patients do end up with nosocomial infections and I do not think anyone was denying that it was a possibility. I do however think you have your mind made up about what happened so it really does not matter what the posters think. I do wish you and your family the best.:redpinkhe
Actually this woman wasn't my stepmom, but thanks earle. This was my stepfather's 1st wife, my stepbrother's mother, and I didn't know her well. This isn't a personal loss for me. I just found out this yesterday, it happened over a month ago.
The doctors have no idea why the white count was low, according to my stepdad. All they know is that she entered the hospital for diagnostic testing, came down with nosocomial infections, and died of pneumonia.
My point in posting this is to bring attention to people here that hospitals are often breeding grounds for unfriendly bacteria and not healthy places to be. My feeling is that this is due to the factors that I have already outlined in previous posts, and I think it's a shame that our healthcare system has lost sight of the basics of nursing care in a mountain of redtape and paperwork.
And my point is that, as a nurse, you should know that if all the basics of nursing had been followed, she very well might have still come down with a nosocomial infection.
Look, I didn't want to invalidate your feelings; that certainly wasn't my message. My point was that, if she had some leukopenia going on, something else was going on, too. She could have just as easily sickened from being exposed to germs in the doctor's office, from her grandkids visiting, or from the grocery store.
I think all of us who work hands on in the hospital are WELL AWARE of how dirty it is there, and we do our best to prevent any spread of disease. But people are dirty. I can't control that.
You said you wanted a discussion; well, you got one. Dissenting opinions are part of the deal. My dissenting opinion is that a) your family member's ex-wife may have had a definite reason for being in the hospital since she was admitted (you implied it was unnecessary and unreasonable and therefore the hospital, nurses, and doctors were directly responsible for her death and that there were no risks involved in NOT admitting her); b) she could have just as easily gotten sick somewhere else, as something was obviously going on with her low white blood cell count; c) as a nurse you should know that; and d) unless you know exactly what goes on in each facility around the country, making blanket statements that nurses and hospitals need to go back to the basics, that every facility is understaffed and doesn't care enough about infection control is completely inaccurate and untrue.
I really am sorry for your loss. I maybe misread your first post; I thought it was more for discussion purposes (as you stated in a later post), and not just a "pray for my family, we lost a loved one," type of post. If you really didn't want a discussion, please request to have my posts removed, I readily consent to their removal if that is indeed the case.
racing-mom4, BSN, RN
1,446 Posts
I belive with my heart of hearts that my Grandfather died just because he went into the hospital in Summer of 02.
My grandfather was a great man, yes he had emphysema, yes he was SOB and yes he was 91. He also was a chronic alcohlic for at least 30+years. He would start the day with a beer and end it with Crown Royal. Now he was not a stumbly drunk at all, really you could not even tell he was drunk, he was completly functioning.
So a family member decided she really needed to take him to the ER for his SOB one day---he walked to the car and walked into the ER. They did admit him over night for obs and breathing treatments q4. During assessment he informed them he was a "social drinker" they had no idea how much he drank. By that night he had begun DTs. The nursing staff assumed it was something else, maybe age related, something unknown. It was 2 days later when he now was hallucenting that the truth came out about his drinking. THe Dr ordered him beer. But by this time he coudlnt even really drink it.
He ended up dying a few days later with complete organ failure.
Because the family- my family was not honest about his drinking, the staff had no idea.
I think of him when ever i hear the words "social drinker" and if my patient states that during assessment, I dig much deeper. I am not being judegmental or nosey, I just need to know what all we are dealing with.