When the hospital kills people

[FireStarterRN]

I was talking to my Step Father today. His ex-wife (the one before my mom) died. She had gone to the doctor for a routine checkup, she wasn't feeling sick at all. She had a low white count when they did the labwork.

The doctor decided to put her in the hospital for a battery of tests, maybe because she was over 80. I don't know her medical history, but he told me that she was healthy and feeling fine when she went in.

In the hospital, she got sicker and sicker with each test. She ended up with pneumonia, ended up on a ventilator, and then she died.

It makes me sick, because I know what hospitals are like. Staff is rushed, housekeeping sometimes does a poor job, nurses are busy filling our pain flow sheets, fall assessment sheets, careplans, documenting in triplicate, defensive charting up the ying yang.

There is a shortage of staff and a shortage of time.

Yes, this lady sounds as if she were neutropenic. Maybe it was a side effect of a medication she was on. But, it sounds like going to the hospital killed her.

[embarrasingfield]

Yep sad truth is that hospitals do contribute to many more deaths and worsened illnesses than most people even want to know.

But the majority of the time they actually help in the bigger picture so I vote that hospitals do stick around.

I vote that health insurance issues be addressed aggresively so thee is better care for everyone, meaning less mistakes overall.

[BradleyRN]

Sorry if I sound harsh, but I get soooo tired of family blaming healthcare people for the death

jlsRN has blamed no one for this incident, but rather an entire system that each of us KNOW to be broken. Administrations are to blame for ensuring ratios that 73% of nurses agree are too large to deliver safe and adequate care. Nosocomial infections are the 8th leading cause of death in this country, and we should not be blind enough to think that the heavy workloads placed on us doesnt play a role in inflating that statistic. jlsRN is one of us, and she already knows your defense. But why would you defend these hospitals that will always give you a little more than you can handle, just so they can clear a little more profit, while at the same time turning a blind eye to your requests for safer ratios or even making an example out of those who even dare to bring it up? Who would disagree that a short staff increases the risk of nosocomial infections? Nobody!:nuke:

[leslie :-D]

i can definitely see the relationship between overburdened nurses w/fail to rescue outcomes.

my other concern w/hospitals, is the many hcw's that don't wash their hands, spreading contaminants from one pt to another.

even w/o direct contact w/the pt, having contact w/inanimate objects and then touching the pt is a means of transmission...even with gloves on.

of course safe nurse/pt ratios will help.

but will it help enough?

leslie

[FireStarterRN, BSN, RN]

jlsRN has blamed no one for this incident, but rather an entire system that each of us KNOW to be broken. Administrations are to blame for ensuring ratios that 73% of nurses agree are too large to deliver safe and adequate care. Nosocomial infections are the 8th leading cause of death in this country, and we should not be blind enough to think that the heavy workloads placed on us doesnt play a role in inflating that statistic. jlsRN is one of us, and she already knows your defense. But why would you defend these hospitals that will always give you a little more than you can handle, just so they can clear a little more profit, while at the same time turning a blind eye to your requests for safer ratios or even making an example out of those who even dare to bring it up? Who would disagree that a short staff increases the risk of nosocomial infections? Nobody!:nuke:

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[leslie :-D]

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

jls, while bradley raises a credible point about staffing in general, do you specifically know that the nurses caring for stepdad's wife, were overburdened?

all of them?

i don't think the only problem is overburdened nurses.

and, we don't even know if that was the case in your situation.

leslie

[racing-mom4, BSN, RN]

I have an issue with the 'blame' factor here. Yes, I can't deny that hospitals are full of nasty buggies and people do get nosocomial infections. But the 91 year old COPD/alcoholic patient is GOING to die regardless of whether or not he/she is admitted to the hospital. It is wrong to place the 'blame' for his death on the hospital. He was elderly, for one, AND he was a train wreck health wise. I'm sorry for the losses, but 80 and 90 year old people are OLD. They WILL die......and we WILL miss them, but to try to 'blame' someone for their deaths is senseless. We don't live forever. Sorry if I sound harsh, but I get soooo tired of family blaming healthcare people for the death of someone who is at that stage of life where death naturally occurs.

Whoa--I was not blaming anyone and I am sorry if you read it as that. What this lesson taught me was to be more in depth on our assessment skills. Nurses are over worked, understaffed. That we can all agree on. Would my grandfather have died, of course, he was 91 with COPD. Was he a "train wreck" no--he went fishing the day before... Did he have to die in the hospital? No. Did his last few days have to be confused/in pain and hooked to many wires? No--did my Grandmother have to see her husband of 75 years die like that, not in my opinion.

Here is my thought on the elderly---they are going to die--ummm last I learned we all are. So we are clear on that but by bringing the elderly to the hosp only gets them out of their "norm" env and disrupts them even more. They are at a greater risk of developing infections, they are at a greater risk of pneumonia.

I tell my living Grandparents to stay away from the hospitals, as if they do have a symptom or some lab is out of whack, odds are to cover the drs butts they will get admited. The elderly seem to do what ever dr says and if dr says lets admit for obs, then odds are they will say OK, they wont question.

I told the story of my grandpa because I wanted the point to be made that if some one says they are a social drinker, just dont write that down and not question it further.

Sorry if your tired of hearing people "blame" the system. I think blame is a normal stage of grief.

[clairebearrn]

Its seems you are quick to blame the healthcare system and like racingmom said it could be due to grief. I am truly sorry for your father's loss. But she had leukopenia and many things could have been going on. She could have been developing pneumonia already. Was she in neutropenic precautions? She was an elder and at risk for infection. Elders may die of this. I'm sorry but I feel offended by everything you say. As a nurse you should know how hard it is to do this job. We try our best at our job-and we can't control everything. What else do you think could have been done for her?

[Tash4nvyblues, RN]

You dad knows about the low white count but there may have been any number of suspicious anomalies in the docs assessment that warrented admission.... My guess, your dad is still grieving and the hospital is as good a place to blame for his wifes death as anyone. He is entitled to believe whatever he wants if it helps him come to terms with his loss. Just keep in mind you are getting a very incomplete picture.

A lady I knew at the age of 40 was diagnosed with leukeamia, her only symptom was that she felt more tired then usual, apart from that there was nothing wrong with her. She died a month later. Maybe something else was wrong with your step father's wife and they ran out of time finding out what it was. Still sad though.

[BradleyRN]

I'm sorry but I feel offended by everything you say. As a nurse you should know how hard it is to do this job.

jlsRN never once said that a nurse killed this woman! She implied that coupled with a compromised immune system, she likely acquired a nosocomial infection. Certainly these infections sometimes spread through poor aseptic technique and improper hand washing skills so if you are guilty of either one of those, then maybe you would be offended. Otherwise, she is complaining about a system that the nurses fall victim to as well as the patients, which you will see in time. Since you have only been a nurse for a month, then your derogatory tone is all you should feel guilty about as you are addressing someone with 14 years seniority.:nuke:

[clairebearrn]

BradleyRN,

jeez sorry!!! I felt bad because she is talking about the hospital system WHICH WE ARE PART OF!!!! and how were just doing paperwork and overlook mistakes...As nurses, we tend to patients first, then paperwork, We do try our best to prevent HA infections and yes I might have been a nurse for a MEASLY month but I've been working in a hospital for 5 years!!! I see this happen day to day at the hospital where am at...a COUNTY facility in Los Angeles...and yes its sad...plus years working as a nurse doesn't make you a great nurse...i have seen some nurses who are 30+ and just sit all day...I don't see why you're attacking me...Dont we post here to share our thoughts not to attack each other...Just because Im a new nurse Im supposed to not say anything and speak my mind...(thats besides the point!) Sorry if I said anything that offended anyone...

[BradleyRN]

Its seems you are quick to blame the healthcare system and...it could be due to grief.

Sorry. But if you are under the impression that jls is grieving, then maybe you should empathize a little more than taking offense. After all, the majority of nurses feel that the hospital system takes advantage of them by giving them too many patients to adequately provide care for. here

And a short staff leads to increased nosocomial infections. Studies have proven this relationship. Good luck in your career, and dont feel bad for hospitals, feel bad for the patients and their loved ones. We cannot defend a system that we ourselves complain about regularly.:nuke:

PS-Sorry if you took my post as an attack. It was only meant to be a tone in the same vein as "I feel offended by everything you say". I was shocked to see that addressed to a woman you thought was grieving.

[clairebearrn]

sorry. but if you are under the impression that jls is grieving, then maybe you should empathize a little more than taking offense. after all, the majority of nurses feel that the hospital system takes advantage of them by giving them too many patients to adequately provide care for. here

and a short staff leads to increased nosocomial infections. studies have proven this relationship. good luck in your career, and dont feel bad for hospitals, feel bad for the patients and their loved ones. we cannot defend a system that we ourselves complain about regularly.:nuke:

ps-sorry if you took my post as an attack. it was only meant to be a tone in the same vein as "i feel offended by everything you say". i was shocked to see that addressed to a woman you thought was grieving.

i know she is grieving and i really feel sorry, i truly do jlsrn...i know if jlsrn was the nurse for the patient, she would have done her best to prevent it...but infections in elders in really a big risk.

also, i know about the shortstaffing, i work at county... its endless..i have done so much research on this and know the outcomes of short staff, all the hap, hapus, missed symptoms, etc...but i get quite sad when i see some nurses complain, "oh i have 5 patients...oh well...im not gonna work hard," and instead of wasting time complaining we should try our best to prevent things like these and tend to our patients...i know its hard but the patients to me are the priority and im pretty sure they are for all of the nurses. i just felt bad because i always try to assess well for everything and that is my priority not documentation like she had stated "nurses are busy filling our pain flow sheets, fall assessment sheets, careplans, documenting in triplicate, defensive charting up the ying yang"....that is why i felt offended...(maybe i should have used better words) you know that is not all we do, right everyone? we do try our best taking care of our patients and assessing them, not only charting----regardless of the short staff, our long hours working without breaks, our tired feet, and millions of orders and telephone calls!

we go to the hospital for help and not to die...but germs are there regardless...and i do wash my hands....im actually a germaphobe and tell doctors to do so too!!! have you noticed how they go patient to patient without doing so!!! as nurses we should tell them...we dont wake up thinking, "how many patients am i going to give a uti or pna?" none of us do!!! :)