When is it ethical to talk about religion with a patient?

[GardenDove]

I was talking with a collegue the other day and she described a conversation with a pt where it sounds as if she were basically evangelizing. Now I had been told by my pastor (Catholic priest), who happens to be a medical ethics specialist and was at one time the chief ethicist for a large Catholic healthcare system. He told me that it's not ethical to try to convert pts and that you have to be very careful about this.

Religion is an awkward subject anyways, much like politics. I ususally follow the pts lead, or look for clues in the room as to their religious persuasion or belief system. But, then again, I don't personally believe people go to Hell just for their beliefs. I have one nurse friend who told me that she will whisper the name of Jesus in dying pt's ears.

Does anyone here pray with pts? I've done that a couple of times, but generally I treat religious beliefs as a private matter.

[tvccrn, ASN, RN]

I never could figure out why some non believers are so disturbed by something they don't believe in. :uhoh21:

This is a very good point. I feel if you don't believe, then what's to get all worked up about. Makes me wonder if they real know what it is that they believe in.

Tazzi, I'm not part of a mainstream religion, but I would love for you to be the nurse of a child of mine if the situation you described ever came up. I think it's the intent behind the action that is key.

tvccrn

[leslie :-D]

I think it's the intent behind the action that is key.

tvccrn

i too, believe intent is a noble gesture.

but it (the intent) certainly should not supersede others' considerations in their religious/spiritual pursuits, or lack thereof.

as another poster stated, there are too many jews out there who have been devastated by the effects of the holocaust-and mandating their conversion to catholicism was another heinous act of mind control.

if there are oppositional reactions, one cannot say "but the intent was there".

it totally disrespects the other's value in their decision-making process and deems your values as superior.

it's just not cool.

i've seen so many bed-side baptisms, performed by visitors, staff, chaplains-so many that it actually diminishes the meaning of the act.

i have however, given a countless number of heartfelt hugs to grieving parents/family members, assuring them that their loved one was being lovingly restored to glory, even as we spoke.

so on a religious basis, perhaps baptism does allay many anxieties for those who are catholic.

but me personally, find it extremely helpful, to address the spiritual divinity of God and all He is doing for the loved one who has passed over.

leslie

[JBirdAngel]

If your a Christian, we are to follow Jesus' example. I think we are most certainly to talk to patients, as well as everyone about our Lord. Jesus healed many sick and demon possessed people. Not everyone who says they are a Christian is, so you cant just listen to someone even if they hold a position that is supposed to be a Christian if it isn't in line with what the Bible teaches. I dont know much about Roman Catholicism, but from what I do know, there are teachings in the "Roman Catholic Church" that are not Christian, and in the past there were people who lead the catholic church that certainly did not show a reborn lifestyle.

Also on this topic it should be noted that spreading false beliefs is wrong no matter the time or place.

Read the Bible and seek the Lord, He will show the truth to those sincerely seeking :)

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

(Mat 7:6-8 KJV)

- jason

[GardenDove]

This isn't a religious debate thread as to which religion is correct, maybe we could keep it to the original subject matter? I didn't start the thread to attack any one religion or to have my religion attacked.

I personally think it's wrong to evangelize at work.

[SuesquatchRN, BSN, RN]

I feel if you don't believe, then what's to get all worked up about. Makes me wonder if they real know what it is that they believe in.

Where are these "worked up" non-believers of whom you speak? Haven't heard from one in here, just from believers who keep stereotyping us and lumping us together in the same ways that someone not versed in the denominations of Christianity would equate a roman Catholic with a Mormon or a Charismatic Snakehandler.

Tazzi, I know that in a Mexican neighborhood in California baptizing a stillborn or dead infant would be met with relief and approval. I agree that you should do that, but your *personal* actions are not the point of what we're saying. No one doubts that, in your circumstances, you are doing the right thing. Those of us who do not share your beliefs are, however, trying to demonstrate the ways in which such well-meant actions could be deemed intrusive.

The only examples of possible infliction of the nurse's beliefs on the patient that have been pointed out in this thread are from the actions of Christians, yet the atheists keep getting accused of being worked up.

Am I the only one who sees the incongruity of this?

[PANurseRN1]

If your a Christian, we are to follow Jesus' example. I think we are most certainly to talk to patients, as well as everyone about our Lord. Jesus healed many sick and demon possessed people. Not everyone who says they are a Christian is, so you cant just listen to someone even if they hold a position that is supposed to be a Christian if it isn't in line with what the Bible teaches. I dont know much about Roman Catholicism, but from what I do know, there are teachings in the "Roman Catholic Church" that are not Christian, and in the past there were people who lead the catholic church that certainly did not show a reborn lifestyle.

If the person is not trying to tell people about Christianity, then they are indeed trying to spread worship of demons, so it would be a huge help to tell people about Christ, and a huge hurt to tell them about otherwise.

Read the Bible and seek the Lord, He will show the truth to those sincerely seeking :)

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

(Mat 7:6-8 KJV)

- jason

You can bet that if you came into my room with tht attitude, not only would I order you out of my room, I would report you to admin. and to the propter authorities for violating my civil rights.

"To everything there is a time and a season."

[tvccrn, ASN, RN]

Suesquatch,

I was replying to a post made by GardenDove about why non believers are so disturbed by something they don't believe in. That's why the quote was above what I posted.

I myself wasn't pointing to any one person on here.

tvccrn

[GardenDove]

I think people were thinking of in the public forum, for instance atheists who can't stand it if a prayer is recited at a football game. This thread has been very civil. Most non-believers mind their own business, but some get lawyers and try to remove any aspect of religion from the public view. I responded to another post about that, hence my comment.

[GardenDove]

As far as baptizing a stillborn, if it brings comfort, fine, but it's theologically incorrect. You can't baptize a dead person.

[SuesquatchRN, BSN, RN]

As far as baptizing a stillborn, if it brings comfort, fine, but it's theologically incorrect. You can't baptize a dead person.

Well, Mormons can, I know. Dead pets, too.

I agree that imposing one's beliefs on a patient is morally wrong.

[caroladybelle, BSN, RN]

Again....I live and work in an area where the Catholic population is very large, and it's often a safe bet to assume the family is Catholic. Would I do this if I were in another area? I don't know. I was taught to do this when I first started nursing, by my first employer, and parents were grateful.

I understand where you are coming from....but please, please remember, that area/name/appearance/culture does not necessarily = religion.

I am red headed, pale, blue eyed, have a name associated w/ the Kennedys, Raniers and have lived in many "Catholic" areas. I get "placed" by many as being of Irish descent. But I am Jewish.

(and you really do not want to know how many have made antisemetic comments have been made around me - because someone did not know - nor how many "Christian" white power fellows sought to date me because of my appearance, not knowing my heritage)

Please remember even in Hispanic areas, that there are Marranos (people of Spanish heritage - whose ancestors were forced to convert during the Inquisition - and some of whom have converted back). Frequently, they may obey some traditional hispanic cultural practices, have hispanic names, but may still believe in Judaism.

How many people place the works/appearance of Modigliani as Jewish?

And there are many people of Jewish heritage, with traditional names and appearance, and still live in "Jewish" neighborhoods/areas...but are not Jewish.

And, yes, Steph, my question was directed to Gardendove, as to how s/he would feel, if someone came to him/her at their death bed and tried to get her to change her Christian religious beliefs to Islam/Judaism/Shinto/Wiccan, because as far as they were concerned s/he would go to "hell" otherwise. Because often those that are trying to convert neglect that those that they seek to convert have beliefs of their own that provide them with their own salvation and comfort.

(which given that many other beliefs don't have hell and/or heaven - it is somewhat moot)

[Spidey's mom, ADN, BSN, RN]

I understand where you are coming from....but please, please remember, that area/name/appearance/culture does not necessarily = religion.

I am red headed, pale, blue eyed, have a name associated w/ the Kennedys, Raniers and have lived in many "Catholic" areas. I get "placed" by many as being of Irish descent. But I am Jewish.

(and you really do not want to know how many have made antisemetic comments have been made around me - because someone did not know - nor how many "Christian" white power fellows sought to date me because of my appearance, not knowing my heritage)

Please remember even in Hispanic areas, that there are Marranos (people of Spanish heritage - whose ancestors were forced to convert during the Inquisition - and some of whom have converted back). Frequently, they may obey some traditional hispanic cultural practices, have hispanic names, but may still believe in Judaism.

How many people place the works/appearance of Modigliani as Jewish?

And there are many people of Jewish heritage, with traditional names and appearance, and still live in "Jewish" neighborhoods/areas...but are not Jewish.

And, yes, Steph, my question was directed to Gardendove, as to how s/he would feel, if someone came to him/her at their death bed and tried to get her to change her Christian religious beliefs to Islam/Judaism/Shinto/Wiccan, because as far as they were concerned s/he would go to "hell" otherwise. Because often those that are trying to convert neglect that those that they seek to convert have beliefs of their own that provide them with their own salvation and comfort.

(which given that many other beliefs don't have hell and/or heaven - it is somewhat moot)

Ah, you are a redhead . . . . that's why I've always liked you.

steph (mother of two redheads and married to a redhead).

p.s. I appreciate your post - all valid points.