When attending a traditional BSN program, are students told they're better than ADNs?

LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN · Mar 5, 2014

I agree that it's never good to generalize, but it actually was the truth in my geographical area, and in my particular case, when I was a nursing student. My ADN program had clinicals two days a week and during summer school, and the majority of the instructors worked as bedside nurses in the hospitals we did our clinicals at. My clinicals took place at four different hospitals including a locked psych unit, psych ER, and a long term care facility. When I bridged to BSN at a state university directly after completing my ADN, I heard students in their final semesters tell me that they had received hardly any clinical training, and didn't feel ready to be nurses. Their lack of training was evident in the community health practicum we took together.

That's relate to clinical instruction, not the program itself. :blink:

Most clinical instructors are nurses still practicing; My BSN program was designed the EXACT same way.

As I stated before, the transition to practice of the "tasky" things to the actual most important skill-nursing judgement COMPETENCE is FAR more important than a "skill" we teach to pts and families.

Granted, there are a small percentage of instructors who may not have that much clinical experience; that's why the need for nurses-especially compenetent, experienced nurses to be educators is so much needed.

MunoRN, RN · Mar 5, 2014

Back to the original question, it's certainly not unheard of for BSN and RN-BSN programs to make the claim that BSN nurses are better nurses than ADN nurses in their promotional/information material, which usually involves citing the Aiken studies on outcomes. Usually the implied message is that if you don't want to kill your patients due to your inferior education, then get a BSN not an ADN. You have to remember that BSN programs are selling a product after all and it's understandable why they would want to separate themselves from alternatives that are typically lower priced.

Susie2310 · Mar 5, 2014

That's relate to clinical instruction, not the program itself.
Most clinical instructors are nurses still practicing; My BSN program was designed the EXACT same way.
As I stated before, the transition to practice of the "tasky" things to the actual most important skill-nursing judgement COMPETENCE is FAR more important than a "skill" we teach to pts and families.
Granted, there are a small percentage of instructors who may not have that much clinical experience; that's why the need for nurses-especially compenetent, experienced nurses to be educators is so much needed.

As I specifically referred to just the nursing programs I attended and to my specific geographic area, I presumed you are referring to the program I stated I attended and are not speaking about BSN programs in general. As you did not attend the program I attended, and know nothing about the program I attended, you cannot credibly say: "That's related to clinical instruction, not the program itself." How do you know that the deficiencies in clinical instruction in the particular BSN program I bridged into are not related to the program? Generic students who were enrolled throughout the entire program appeared to believe the program was deficient.

I'm also not following the relevance of your comment about the transition to practice of "tasky" things to actual skill, nursing judgment, etc. in relation to your reply to my post. In the ADN program I attended we were taught to use the nursing process and to use nursing judgment throughout. Also, why are you lecturing me about competence being far more important than a "skill" we teach patients and families?

LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN · Mar 5, 2014

As I specifically referred to just the nursing programs I attended and to my specific geographic area, I presumed you are referring to the program I stated I attended and are not speaking about BSN programs in general. As you did not attend the program I attended, and know nothing about the program I attended, you cannot credibly say: "That's related to clinical instruction, not the program itself." How do you know that the deficiencies in clinical instruction in the particular BSN program I bridged into are not related to the program? Generic students who were enrolled throughout the entire program appeared to believe the program was deficient.
I'm also not following the relevance of your comment about the transition to practice of "tasky" things to actual skill, nursing judgment, etc. in relation to your reply to my post. In the ADN program I attended we were taught to use the nursing process and to use nursing judgment throughout. Also, why are you lecturing me about competence being far more important than a "skill" we teach patients and families?

My point is you haven't been in a generic BSN program, do how would one know what they didn't know since they are still learning??? No "lecture" here; most students and even nurses believe clinical skills are the "tasks": IV lines, medication administration, etc; a lot of students fumble through teaching or even still connecting the dots due to the atmosphere; not the hours itself; I am sure there were peers in your ADN program that were in the same conundrum and have gone on to become wonderful nurses; that happens when one actually goes on to hone their practice by allowing their fundamental foundation comment the dots to the actuals; "clinical hours", IMHO, have NOTHING compared the actual hours in a clinical setting as a practicing nurse.

As what I have been observing here on AN, surveying clinical programs naturally and researched skill mix as a practical research protect during my BSN; again, hours related to ADN and BSN are similar though planned out differently; there is no statistical difference; the major difference is the atmosphere or learning; granted if we had the same type of clinical instructor in terms of background; the only difference is geographical location and yours was a ADN program mines was a BSN program, is there REALLY A difference in schools??? Not so much; that also doesn't mean that there aren't instructors that do a "bare minimum" job, or may not be allowed to do as much for any extraneous factors-patient census, liability issues, etc.

That still doesn't give one a disadvantage when stepping on the floor as a graduate nurse; the information how to theoretically "think like a nurse" is still there, and it still can be shaped.

LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN · Mar 6, 2014

Back to the original question, it's certainly not unheard of for BSN and RN-BSN programs to make the claim that BSN nurses are better nurses than ADN nurses in their promotional/information material, which usually involves citing the Aiken studies on outcomes. Usually the implied message is that if you don't want to kill your patients due to your inferior education, then get a BSN not an ADN. You have to remember that BSN programs are selling a product after all and it's understandable why they would want to separate themselves from alternatives that are typically lower priced.

Yes, back to the original question; again, I would LOVE to know what programs are "selling" this point; I am very grateful I am not in an area that promotes such nonsense; maybe it's due to the large percentage of professors and instructors that have been diploma and ASN nurses prior to becoming a BSN and earning their MSN in my program that I didn't hear it, thank goodness.

I think about my research professor who was a ASN who went on to get her BSN, MSN, and doctorate; that Aiken study must have been the holy grail in terms of research and preparing for better outcomes; she is a program director at a local hospital where she did research as a ASN prior to becoming a BSN, and even though they hire ADNs, they favor BSNs now; she still works at this area hospital, and helped shape the change to hiring more BSNs and encouraging ADNs to get their BSNs; in the classroom-no associate-degree bashing-she lived her ADN roots, but enjoyed the examples of working at an actual hospital that produced the factors of Aiken's study.

Susie2310 · Mar 6, 2014

My point is you haven't been in a generic BSN program, do how would one know what they didn't know since they are still learning??? Most studied believe clinical skills are the "tasks": IV lines, medication administration, etc; a lot of students fumble through teaching or even still connecting the dots due to the atmosphere; not the hours itself; I am sure there were peers in your ADN program that were in the same conundrum and have gone on to become wonderful nurses; that happens when one actually goes on to hone their practice by allowing their fundamental foundation comment the dots to the actuals; "clinical hours", IMHO, have NOTHING compared the actual hours in a clinical setting as a practicing nurse.
As what I have been observing here on AN, surveying clinical programs naturally and researched skill mix as a practical research protect during my BSN; again, hours related to ADN and BSN are similar though planned out differently; there is no statistical difference; the major difference is the atmosphere or learning; granted if we had the same type of clinical instructor in terms of background; the only difference is location and program, is there REALLY A difference in schools??? Not so much; that also doesn't mean that there aren't instructors that do a "bare minimum" job, or even may not know how or may not be allowed to do as much for any extraneous factors-patient census, liability issues, etc.
That still doesn't give one a disadvantage when stepping on the floor as a graduate nurse; the information how to theoretically "think like a nurse" is still there, and it still can be shaped.

No, I haven't been through a generic BSN program. I clearly referred specifically to my experience in an ADN-BSN program and I clearly referred to my geographic area. I also referred to comments made to me by generic BSN students in the program I bridged into about the quality of their clinical training and program deficiencies, as defined by them. I also stated in my post my observations of these students clinical practice in our community health practicum. That was all I said, in reply to part of llg's post. I didn't generalize my comments to "all" BSN programs or "all" BSN students/graduates, and I didn't go on to discuss anyone's perception of tasks, the nursing process, nursing schools, or the transition from student nurse to practicing nurse, or anything else.

Nola009 · Mar 6, 2014

Im sure youre all intelligent, lovely people. Thanks for sharing. :angrybird10:

cinlou, BSN, MSN, RN · Mar 6, 2014

Check out this site and it will tell you the clinical hours for LPN, ADN, BSN for most all states, you will find there isn't much difference from state to state, however each state has there own requirements, and some states don't have specific hours just recommendations. Many colleges within the same state speak to each other and try to run similar hours for their own programs. With that said hours do not equate to quality or the ability for each student to learn in the same manner. Some nurses are better at some skills than others, some are better leaders than others. All are individuals and everyone has their own strengths, that is why we need all levels to make a team.

https://www.ncsbn.org/Educational_Programs_Entry_into_Practice.pdf

Charlie Don't Surf · Mar 7, 2014

I'm brand new here, and a student working on my degree- is it acceptable to post a relevant ADN/BSN question in this thread as a student?

Nola009 · Mar 7, 2014

I'm brand new here and a student working on my degree- is it acceptable to post a relevant ADN/BSN question in this thread as a student?[/quote']
Even if your comment is irrelevant, dont worry. You wouldnt be the first. I, as the OP say 'go for it!!'

Charlie Don't Surf · Mar 7, 2014

Has anyone here not been able to get the RN job that they wanted (being realistic) because they only had RN on their name tag? I'm kind of at this crevasse between the two, and the realistic and fundamental differences between the two. And while I'm in NC, I'm likely to want to relocate, so does this ADN/BSN issue vary greatly between states and regions?

CrazyGoonRN · Mar 7, 2014

I was already an LPN when I started my BSN program so I started out with a different mindset than my peers. In my BSN program I never heard any talk implying that ADN programs made you less of a nurse. My program taught us that BSN nurses are better prepared to be researchers of EBP and to further our education to become leaders in the nursing profession. I think it really just depends on the nursing program and how it teaches it's students.