Hearing on H.R. 4292, the "Born Alive Infant Protection Act of 2000"
July 20, 2000
I am a Registered Nurse who has worked in the Labor & Delivery Department at Christ Hospital in Oak Lawn, Illinois, for the past five years. Christ Hospital performs abortions on women in their second or even third trimesters of pregnancy. Sometimes the babies being aborted are healthy, and sometimes they are not.
The method of abortion that Christ Hospital uses is called "induced labor abortion," also now known as "live birth abortion." This type of abortion can be performed different ways, but the goal always is to cause a pregnant woman's cervix to open so that she will deliver a premature baby who dies during the birth process or soon afterward. The way that induced abortion is most often executed at my hospital is by the physician inserting a medication called Cytotec into the birth canal close to the cervix. Cytotec irritates the cervix and stimulates it to open. When this occurs, the small, preterm baby drops out of the uterus, oftentimes alive. It is not uncommon for one of these live aborted babies to linger for an hour or two or even longer. One of them once lived for almost eight hours.
In the event that a baby is aborted alive, he or she receives no medical assessments or care but is only given what my hospital calls "comfort care." "Comfort care" is defined as keeping the baby warm in a blanket until he or she dies, although even this minimal compassion is not always provided. It is not required that these babies be held during their short lives.
One night, a nursing co-worker was taking an aborted Down's Syndrome baby who was born alive to our Soiled Utility Room because his parents did not want to hold him, and she did not have time to hold him. I could not bear the thought of this suffering child dying alone in a Soiled Utility Room, so I cradled and rocked him for the 45 minutes that he lived. He was 21 to 22 weeks old, weighed about ½ pound, and was about 10 inches long. He was too weak to move very much, expending any energy he had trying to breathe. Toward the end he was so quiet that I couldn't tell if he was still alive unless I held him up to the light to see if his heart was still beating through his chest wall. After he was pronounced dead, we folded his little arms across his chest, wrapped him in a tiny shroud, and carried him to the hospital morgue where all of our dead patients are taken.
Other co-workers have told me many upsetting stories about live aborted babies whom they have cared for. I was told about an aborted baby who was supposed to have Spina bifida but was delivered with an intact spine. Another nurse is haunted by the memory of an aborted baby who came out weighing much more than expected ~ almost two pounds. She is haunted because she doesn't know if she made a mistake by not getting that baby medical help. A Support Associate told me about a live aborted baby who was left to die on the counter of the Soiled Utility Room wrapped in a disposable towel. This baby was accidentally thrown into the garbage, and when they later were going through the trash to find the baby, the baby fell out of the towel and on to the floor.
I was recently told about a situation by a nurse who said, "I can't stop thinking about it." She had a patient who was 23+ weeks pregnant, and it did not look as if her baby would be able to continue to live inside of her. The baby was healthy and had up to a 39% chance of survival, according to national statistics. But the patient chose to abort. The baby was born alive. If the mother had wanted everything done for her baby, there would have been a neonatologist, pediatric resident, neonatal nurse, and respiratory therapist present for the delivery, and the baby would have been taken to our Neonatal Intensive Care Unit for specialized care. Instead, the only personnel present for this delivery were an obstetrical resident and my co-worker. After delivery the baby, who showed early signs of thriving, was merely wrapped in a blanket and kept in the Labor & Delivery Department until she died 2-1/2 hours later.
Something is very wrong with a legal system that says doctors are mandated to pronounce babies dead but are not mandated to assess babies for life and chances of survival. In other words, our laws currently say that babies have no rights to medical oversight until they are dead. We look the other way and pretend that these babies aren't human while they're alive but human only after they are dead. We issue these babies both birth and death certificates, but it is really only the death certificate that matters. No other children in America are medically abandoned like this.
Abortion is a cancer that is literally killing America. It is killing our children while it is killing our consciences. It began when we took God out of our decision-making and proclaimed that the little beings growing inside of women were "products of conception" and not little girls and little boys. Who should be surprised that we keep pushing the envelope so that now we are aborting these "products of conception" alive? I even work at a hospital named "Christ" that does this very thing! It is beyond me to comprehend that we're doing what we're doing now, and so I can't even imagine what horrible ways we will think of next to torture our children. Please help put an end to this by proclaiming infants as American human being homo sapiens with the same legal and medical rights that you and I big people have. Thank you.
Ok, well I wasn't going to touch this one but I just have to add my 2cents.
I am a Christian and I would generally consider myself pro life however that being said.
I have been involved with people who believed that all forms of birth control were forms of abortion and continued to have baby after baby some having downs babies and continued having babies, and others having nervous breakdowns because they just couldn't handle it, and not feeling like they could take control over not having any more because of a religious belief they had or had been taught. To me that is just wrong!
As far as abortions I don't agree with PB abortions that is murder IMO. I also feel like abortion is so easily accessible that women are using it as a form of birth control and that too is wrong IMO. If you don't have the discipline to take BC or use a form of it get an IUD or other semi permanent form.
I have a baby and I know from the fist HPT I called it a baby it was a baby it was my baby though not planned, I loved it!! it had a heart beat, and I can't imagine having to choose to take that babies life, but if I had found out that there was a serious birth defect, then I would have had to make that choice, and I would have based it on the quality of life for that child as well as survival chances and a ton or prayer. As far as NICU for preemies, I have never been in that position so I can't say what I would do, but I would think long and hard about subjecting my baby to that treatment.
I am tired of being lumped together with extreme religious and pro lifers, I believe there is a place for an abortion though I pray that I never have to make that choice. I don't feel that mothers are getting all the information and support that they need in order to make this HUGE life changing decision. There are SO many people out there that want babies and can't have them that would love the opportunity to adopt and I think that is a definite option that should be encouraged in healthy normal babies who's mother either can't or won't raise them.
I just can't imagine leaving a baby to die alone wrapped in a blanket or even not wrapped! there is something in me that wants to save life, and I know that sometimes that is just not possible, but it doesn't keep me from wanting to.
Ok so I am done now, I just couldn't leave this one alone.
Did your parents completely go pro-choice? Because of the extremists? There are extremists in every thing we take part in. We just pray for them and pray for the women having to deal with them. I am not them. I try to educate and support.
I wouldn't say they are completely pro-choice. They still believe in adoption (for obvious reasons, they adopted 2 children due to infertility!), and believe that abortion is wrong. They just no longer believe it should be illegal at all. Their experience of seeing the judgementalness made them swing the other way. I feel exactly the same way. Outlawing abortions just drives them underground. The only way to decrease abortions is to provide support to women, in the form of contraception and education or health care and shelter if they do become pregnant. This is coming from a girl who is the result of an unplanned pregnancy:)
to NICU nurse, i simply was stating that SOME people want to have an abortion at late stage which ends up being partial birth abortion. they dont want the abortion because the baby has major problems, and they dont want their child to suffer the rest of their lives, how ever long that may be. The reason why some people want these abortions is because they dont want the baby. there are doctors performing these abortions just for that reason. THAT is what is unfair. It is a different situation when there is a serious problem. also, why are these babies left alone to die??? THAT is also inhuman. So, when you talk about NICU, i DO understand, i have been in one before, and have friends that have been in difficult situations. I agree with you. I hope i was not misunderstood. Thanks.
There are things going on at work. Pray that I will have His strength, wisdom, perseverance, and no fear.
One day in November I noted on the schedule that I was soon to be assigned as Charge Nurse (CN). I was surprised by this assignment, because I have never been CN in L&D before and sure didn't expect the powers-that-be to want me as one now. So per hospital policy, I wrote a memo to the four L&D team leaders (who make the assignments). In that memo I stated that I do not want to be CN in Christ Hospital L&D as long as it is in the business of abortion (because I believe that a CN has to be available to help with an abortion). I further stated that I believe the CNs are complicit with abortion at Christ Hospital because they make nursing assignments and such - they get their hands dirty even if it's covertly.
Well, the team leaders were very upset by my memo. Not only that, but they told others on the floor about my beliefs regarding CNs. It has created a huge stir.
I guess this was the straw that broke the camel's back. It has now become a free-for-all. Three of the four team leaders and my assistant manager have each met with me now, and all their thoughts and emotions are coming out. I have been told that everyone is terrified of me. They don't know me any more, they say. They don't know if I'm going to pull a gun or if another pro-life loony is going to blast the place. I and the abortion controversy are the cause for the chaos on the floor. The floor has never been in such a mess. I have no idea how upset everyone is.
In the meantime, my annual evaluation is two months late. I finally called HR this morning to find out what's up with that. Through the course of the conversation HR did confess that there is an investigation of me going on right now. I had been told this privately by nurse friends who have been asked about me by management. The rep said that the company has to investigate complaints of fear and disruption. Even if I don't disrupt the floor during the course of my hours at work, my public stand against abortion may be cause for fear and must be looked into.
I expect that this very article and others like it may end up as documentation against me someday. But I will not let this concern stop me from seeking prayer from the Lord's people. Then satan would win in this forum.
There is other news. Christ Hospital had over 4,000 deliveries last year. This is a milestone that I don't believe has ever been hit. A team leader gloated about this to me. "See, Jill, your crusade hasn't stopped anything."
But I am still standing. It is kind of funny to note that a quote from Winston Churchill on my boss's door brings me comfort. "Success is moving from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm." And I have the Psalms, "And I have my God, Who is on my side." "Call on me in times of trouble. I will rescue you, and you will honor me." "Our God will come and will not remain silent. A devouring fire is in front of him and a raging storm around him." "You have loved what is right and hated what is wrong. That is why God, your God, has anointed you, rather than your companions."
Is it time to leave Christ Hospital? Not yet. As recently as two weeks ago I saw that He still has use for me there. I was called into work one day on the day shift, because they were busy. I always look around the department to see, from God's point of view, why I'm there when something like this happens. Sure enough, I noted that there was an abortion going on, being performed by the very doctor who told his church a year ago that he would no longer participate in abortion. No wonder he was surprised to see me when I walked in. God used me that day to try and reach that man's conscience. So I will stay until He pulls me out.
I do have uplifting news. I have been invited back to Washington on March 22 by Concerned Women for America. They're hosting a luncheon for Senators, Congressmen, and aides to talk up the Born Alive Act (which must be reintroduced this new session). I am also being asked to speak at banquets and such more and more. The news of what Christ Hospital does will not stop. I thought it was a major hoot when God rebroadcast my "O'Reilly" segment a couple of weeks ago. "In your lives he will increase the things you do that have his approval." (II Cor. 9:10)
They are right about the floor being in a mess. I looked around the station near Christmas and realized that no one put up the Christmas decorations this year... a symptom to me of depression or something like that. They are also very short-staffed. They're even having a meeting this very day to discuss how to keep staff. People are very crabby. They may not completely understand why - and they may blame me - but I know exactly what is going on. Believe you me, when management has opened a door by bringing the subject of abortion up, I have been using the opportunities to speak truth and I even read Scripture to two of them who claimed to be Christian (Proverbs 24:11-12).
There are other good things going on that I will talk about when it is safe. I am not downcast. I'm just a little tired. Please pray for abortion to stop at Christ Hospital.
I chose to work at Christ Hospital in Oak Lawn, IL, in 1993, because it was a highly respected hospital and because it was a Christian hospital. I assumed that at Christ Hospital I wouldn't have to deal with moral and ethical problems such as abortion, because I never would have dreamed that a hospital named "Christ" would be involved in such an obvious conflict with God's law.
I worked for two years in a heart unit, and then I transferred to the place where I had wanted to work ever since nursing school - the Labor & Delivery Unit. It never occurred to me to ask about abortion, nor did management ever mention it during my interview or by anyone during my 12-week orientation.
So when I came to work that night four years ago and heard in report that we were aborting a second-trimester baby with Down's syndrome, I was completely appalled. But I came to find out that Christ Hospital quietly aborted some 10 to 25 babies a year - almost exclusively babies with physical or mental handicaps. These handicaps could range from being fatal in nature such as having no brain or no kidneys to being nonfatal but in the hospital's words "marked by substantial uncertainty or variability" such as spina bifida or Down's syndrome.
To a person who believes that every life is sacred, the practice of eugenic abortions is abominable. But it was magnified in my world because the very place that these particular abortions were committed was at a hospital named after my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
It was grievous enough to discover that a hospital named "Christ" committed abortion. But what became most heinous to me was learning of the method that Christ Hospital uses to abort, called induced labor abortion, also now known as Live Birth Abortion/Infanticide.
This type of abortion can be committed different ways, but the goal always is to cause a pregnant woman's cervix to open so that she will prematurely deliver a baby who dies during the birth process or soon afterward.
The way that induced abortion is most often executed at my hospital is by the physician inserting a pill called Cytotec into the birth canal close to the cervix. The cervix is the opening at the bottom of the uterus that normally stays closed until a mother is about 40 weeks pregnant and ready to deliver. Cytotec irritates the cervix and stimulates it to open. When this happens, the small second or even third trimester, pre-term and fully-formed baby falls out of the uterus, oftentimes alive. Christ Hospital has aborted as late as 28 weeks. It is not uncommon for one of the live aborted babies to linger for an hour or two or even longer. At Christ Hospital one of these babies lived for almost an entire eight-hour shift. This year alone, of the 10 babies that I am aware of who have been aborted at Christ Hospital, four have survived the procedure, and each of these four have lived between 1-1/2 to 3 hours.
Christ Hospital says that it compassionately aborts babies with very serious mental or physical handicaps. But Christ Hospital will also abort for life or health of the mother. And so two of the second-trimester babies who have been aborted this year, for instance, were completely healthy.
In the event that an aborted baby is born alive, she or he is given no medical care but is only given what hospitals call "comfort care." "Comfort care" is defined as keeping the baby warm in a blanket until he or she dies, although even this minimal act of compassion is not always provided. The baby is offered to the parents to hold until she or he dies. If the parents do not want to hold their dying aborted baby, as is most often the case, nursing staff or support staff on the floor holds the baby until she or he dies. If staff does not have time or desire to hold the baby, because these babies have been known to live as long as six to seven hours, the baby is taken to our Soiled Utility Room and left there alone to die.
One night, a nursing co-worker was taking an aborted Down's syndrome baby who was born alive to our Soiled Utility Room because his parents did not want to hold him, and she did not have time to hold him. I could not bear the thought of this suffering child dying alone in a Soiled Utility Room, so I cradled and rocked him for the 45 minutes that he lived. He was between 21 and 22 weeks old, weighed about 1/2 pound, and was about 10 inches long. He was too weak to move very much, expending any energy he had trying to breathe. Toward the end he was so quiet that I could tell if he was still alive unless I held him up to the light to see if his heart was still beating through his chest wall. After he was pronounced dead, we folded his little arms across his chest, wrapped him in a tiny shroud, and carried him to the hospital morgue where all of our dead patients are taken.
A little over a year ago the weight of all of this became too much for me to bear. I had two choices. One choice was to leave the hospital and go work at a hospital that didn't commit abortions. The other was to attempt to change Christ Hospital's abortion practice. Then, I read a Scripture that I thought spoke directly to me and my situation, and it is Proverbs 24:11-12: "Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to death; don't stand back and let them die. Don't try to disclaim responsibility by saying you didn't know about it. For God knows what is in your mind, and he will notice. He is watching you and he will know. He will pay each person back for what he has done." And so I decided that to quit at that point would be irresponsible and actually disobedient to God. Sure, I might be more comfortable if I left the hospital, but babies would continue to die.
And so last Spring I wrote a letter to Christ Hospital administrators telling them about the abortions I had witnessed. I didn't believe that they could possibly know about this barbaric practice at their hospital named after Christ Jesus. As a result of my letter, I was called in for a meeting with my superiors in May. They told me that it would be a shame to lose me, but perhaps I might be better suited at a hospital that shared my same Pro-life convictions. But I told them that I was not going to quit. I wasn't sure what I was going to do next, but I knew I had not yet made enough of an attempt to stop abortion there.
My pastor and I determined that the next Godly step was to alert a few pro-life organizations and ask them to privately help try to dissuade the hospital against abortion.
One person we notified was the Cardinal of Chicago. I'm not Catholic, but I thought, "Why not?!" This man oversees the second-largest diocese in the United States and has many people pulling him in many directions, but he believed the words of an insignificant non-catholic nurse and within a week wrote a letter to Christ Hospital condemning their abortion practice
Another person contacted was Dr. C. Everett Koop, the former Surgeon General of the United States. The person calling him had never had any contact with him whatsoever. But unbelievably his secretary put her through to Dr. Koop, and that very day he also wrote a letter condemning their abortion policy to Advocate, Christ Hospital's parent company.
I tell you a couple of these asides to remind us all that we don't know unless we try. God has many, many blessings and support to give us if we only ask.
When private appeals did not work in dissuading Advocate and the hospital against committing abortion, the next godly step was to take this to the "church," which my pastor did in July by sending a letter to 70 pro-life organizations and churches. It was my pastor's letter that triggered all of the public outcry, prayer vigils, protests, and media attention since.
Up to this point you may have been thinking that this story is terrible and sad, but is perhaps not relevant to you and your hometown hospital. But when the Christ Hospital story broke, two other Chicago area hospitals immediately confessed to committing Live Birth Abortion. Then we started seeing news stories of nearly identical situations in Canada and then in Australia. It apparently is not a rare form of abortion. And now with the baby parts trafficking revelations coming out, one would be naive not to believe that babies are aborted alive so as to harvest the freshest livers and eyeballs and kidneys.
It is very distressing to know that some misguided Christians believe that abortion is what Jesus would do. A Christ Hospital chaplain said on Channel 5 news in an interview staged in Christ Hospital's chapel, "Christ in his time was the most passionate minister and servant to the people around him, to many different marginalized folks. He never turned anyone away. With the needs here, I don't think we can turn anyone away either." It is most distressing to know that these abortions have been sanctioned by the two pro-choice Christian denominations that Christ Hospital is affiliated with, the United Church of Christ and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.
I, therefore, believe that the words God spoke through Malachi 2,500 years ago speak to the religious and secular leaders of Christ Hospital today. Malachi 2:1-8 says, "And now, you priests, this warning is for you. If you won't listen and if you won't consider giving honor to my name, then I'll send a curse on you.... A priest's lips should preserve knowledge... But you have turned from the correct path and caused many to stumble over my teachings.... So I have made you disgusting, and I have humiliated you in front of all the people, because you have not followed my ways. You have shown partiality in your interpretation of the law."
And so it was that the information contained in my pastor's letter quickly spread throughout Chicago, Illinois, and then the rest of the United States. The story has been on CBN, CBS, ABC, NBC, MSNBC, WGN, and Fox TV, Focus on the Family, Lifetalk, VCY America, Catholic Family Radio, USA Radio News, and radio talk shows in Dallas, Washington, D. C., New York, Denver, St. Louis, and San Diego; the Chicago Tribune, the Chicago Sun-Times, and City News USA. In September this all reached the floor of the United States Senate during its debate on partial birth abortions. Senator Bob Smith mentioned Christ Hospital in Oak Lawn, IL, and its practice of Live Birth Abortions several times in his speeches, which were broadcast nationwide on C-Span2.
Last September, the Illinois Attorney General's Office was to open an investigation. Not only was the "comfort care" being given to live aborted babies questionable, but moral and legal minds were questioning the Live Birth Abortion method itself. There is indeed something different about it. With all other methods, either part or all of the baby is left inside the uterus when she or he dies. But could Christ Hospital's practice of allowing babies to die outside the womb be considered infanticide or murder? The Attorney General's office has just recently determined that nothing in the way that Christ Hospital aborts is illegal in Illinois at this time.
Also in last September, I received a first and final warning from the hospital for breaching confidentiality by going public with the truth of what was going on within their walls. My year-long probation was just completed a few weeks ago.
In October, Christ Hospital's parent company, Advocate Health Care Systems, issued a press release stating that they would no longer abort children with non-fatal handicaps such as Down's or Spina bifida. Advocate also said that they would stop abortions at six of their eight hospitals. But Advocate stated that it would still continue aborting what it considered fatally handicapped children at Christ Hospital and Lutheran General Hospital and furthermore refer all other Advocate hospital aborting patients to these two hospitals. This means that it is possible that Christ Hospital and Lutheran General will commit more abortions than they did before! Advocate also brought new abortions to Christ Hospital. Christ Hospital will "selectively reduce" the number of babies in the uterus (under multiple gestation - quadruplets or more), and those when the "health" of the mother is endangered. We all know that in abortion terms, "health of the mother" is very loose and open-ended terminology. Advocate also stated that they would allow abortions of minor girls without their parents' knowledge or consent.
In November I was suspended for refusing to sign Christ Hospital's confidentiality agreement. This agreement says that an employee will not discuss any matters related to the hospital with "unauthorized" people, which I knew I could not sign on to do. My suspension was remarkably lifted a day later after news of it was on NBC, and Fox.
This past April, legislation was introduced in the United States Congress called the Born Alive Infants Protection Act. This bill simply clarifies what some people have apparently become confused about - that any baby born alive, whether through abortion or not, has the same rights as American citizens that you and I have. This would include the right to medical assessments and care and not only "comfort care" when a baby is not wanted.
In July, I was asked to testify before Congress regarding the babies I knew about who were aborted alive and left to die. Another nurse who had worked at the hospital for a year, Allison Baker, also agreed to testify.
When we testified before Congress, I told about an aborted baby who was supposed to have spina bifida but was delivered with an intact spine. I told about an incident that a Support Associate described to me about accidentally throwing a live aborted baby in the garbage who had been left on the counter of the Soiled Utility Room wrapped in a disposable towel. Allison described walking into the Soiled Utility Room on two separate occasions to find babies left naked on a scale and the metal counter.
The Born Alive Infants Protection Act just passed through Congress at an amazing margin of 380-15. I cannot actually believe that there are 15 Congress people who would vote in favor of infanticide, but apparently God wanted them red-flagged before their elections. One of them was the son of a "Reverend" - Jesse Jackson, Jr. from Chicago. The bill now sits in the Senate, where it appears to have little hope of passing in the remaining few days of this session before the election. I don't know what will happen next session.
I remain at the hospital because I think this is where the Lord wants me right now - where I can watch and be a witness. I have asked Him to take that decision out of my hands, because I do not exactly know when the moment will be right for me to leave. I try very hard not to be afraid. In fact, I know that none of us have to be afraid or intimidated. God says in Isaiah, "I, the Lord, have called you to do what is right. I will take hold of your hand. I will protect you. Don't be afraid, because I am with you. Don't be intimidated; I am your God. I will strengthen you. I will help you. You will bring prisoners out of prisons, and bring those who live in darkness out of dungeons."
to NICU nurse, i simply was stating that SOME people want to have an abortion at late stage which ends up being partial birth abortion. they dont want the abortion because the baby has major problems, and they dont want their child to suffer the rest of their lives, how ever long that may be. The reason why some people want these abortions is because they dont want the baby. there are doctors performing these abortions just for that reason. THAT is what is unfair. It is a different situation when there is a serious problem. also, why are these babies left alone to die??? THAT is also inhuman. So, when you talk about NICU, i DO understand, i have been in one before, and have friends that have been in difficult situations. I agree with you. I hope i was not misunderstood. Thanks.
No, Anne, that post was certainly not directed at anyone in particular, though I did quote Celeste's post only to clear up an inaccurate fact that had been posted (because I believe, no matter what your stance on the issue, that the issue is important, and I also believe that if one is going to understand a problem to be ABLE to take a stance, one must have the facts in their most accurate form...).
So, no, you weren't misunderstood. At least, I'm not guilty of misunderstanding your point. :kiss
I cannot, obviously, speak for every NICU in the nation, because I've only worked in two. Also, a baby brought to the NICU for "comfort measures" is different than a baby or fetus (I'm not into semantics, particularly on this issue!) who dies in the delivery room. As far as the NICU is concerned, we have certainly had pre-term comfort measures (as well as term babies who, for one reason or another, are incompatible with life) on our units, and I have only seen compassionate, tender nursing care in these instances. I cannot say that these babies have been held until they took their last breath (unfortunately, not always possible in the busy NICU, but we certainly do what we can and often more than you'd realize), but the treatment of these infants as far as I've witnessed has been more than humane.
I think it is important to remember, when people make claims like those (leaving infants to die alone! the devils!), to allow yourself a little perspective and realize that there are circumstances that, sadly, are not considered "sexy journalism". This is just the culture we live in, so I think it wise to take EVERY empassioned statement with a grain of salt- just because this woman, or even numerous women or people or entire groups or populations say something is so doesn't make it so. People can be very convincing, and use very convincing language, when they want you to believe in something (or feel something, or buy something, etc.).
Anyway. Again, Anne, not speaking directly at anyone. Sorry for the misunderstanding. :)
The whole partial birth abortion thing has really got me upset, I just see it as a slippery slope, so if what I am reading is correct a just reason for having one could be if there were anomalies
that the parents were not capable of dealing with such as downs syndrome or spinal bifita . Sooo what happens if a baby is born with conditions that the parents were not aware of before hand...should they after the birth have the right to put a pair of scissors in the back of the babies skull and kill it. The only difference is a few precious inches....be honest about:o
How much are people "told everything" about ANY surgical procedure they have? I've seen people have cardiac caths when it was the first time that particular physician had ever done one (he was being coached by another physician), and you can bet next month's salary that no one "informed" the patient of THAT!!! How many of us actually make sure that surgical patients read all the fine print on the op permit -- you know, where it goes on about how you can bleed to death, or develop a fatal infection, or just react to the anesthesia and die on the table??
If someone comes into the hospital to have a hip replaced, all he or she really wants to know is that the hip is going to be replaced. If a woman is seeking an abortion, she has already thought about and made that decision, and all she really wants to know at that point is that she's not going to be pregnant anymore when the procedure is over.
It seems to me that the only time people really get whipped about the patient finding out "everything" about a procedure is when pro-life people want to make women who are trying to terrminate a pregnancy feel guilty ...
I have a hard time with the fact that you are comparing an abortion to a hip replacement.
I have not heard of to many people feeling guilty about having a hip replacement..also someone on an earlier post refered to a 12 fetus as a clump of cells...I am not sure of 12 weeks but I have seen intact 14 weeker deliver (Fetal Demise) and it was completely formed just very tiny...see that is what upsets me...some women are duped into thinking all they have inside them is a clup of cells...when you are first pregnant, you do not feel as if you have a life inside you ...you feel sick, tired, emotional...I was in a loving relationship and it was still hard at the begining ...all I am saying is that women should be informed.
The whole partial birth abortion thing has really got me upset, I just see it as a slippery slope, so if what I am reading is correct a just reason for having one could be if there were anomalies
that the parents were not capable of dealing with such as downs syndrome or spinal bifita . Sooo what happens if a baby is born with conditions that the parents were not aware of before hand...should they after the birth have the right to put a pair of scissors in the back of the babies skull and kill it. The only difference is a few precious inches....be honest about:o
Again, do think there is a real difference between fetus and baby. That's honestly what I think.
Maybe some of us are not as far apart as we think-
I would identify myself as prolife, but politically am prochoice. That's because although I can't imagine having an abortion there may come a time and a set of circumstances where I absolutely couldn't carry a baby to term. Maybe an illness, rape, I can't predict what might happen...
In that case, if after much soul searching I decided that abortion was the absolute, only way to cope I would NOT want the government hanging over my shoulder and evaluating my decision.
I like to think of prochoice as not being so much proabortion, but more about making sure resources are there if (heaven forbid) I or someone I love needs them. What I read is that alot of people fall into that gray area here. We need to recognize that it's not Us and Them, I think there is a respect for life among all nurses. We express it differently by advocating for prolife groups, or teaching among teens, or whatever.
Specializes in Case Mgmt; Mat/Child, Critical Care.
Originally posted by canoehead
Maybe some of us are not as far apart as we think-
I would identify myself as prolife, but politically am prochoice. That's because although I can't imagine having an abortion there may come a time and a set of circumstances where I absolutely couldn't carry a baby to term. Maybe an illness, rape, I can't predict what might happen...
In that case, if after much soul searching I decided that abortion was the absolute, only way to cope I would NOT want the government hanging over my shoulder and evaluating my decision.
I like to think of prochoice as not being so much proabortion, but more about making sure resources are there if (heaven forbid) I or someone I love needs them. What I read is that alot of people fall into that gray area here. We need to recognize that it's not Us and Them, I think there is a respect for life among all nurses. We express it differently by advocating for prolife groups, or teaching among teens, or whatever.
Very good post. I think a lot of people feel this way, not wanting an abortion for themselves, however wanting the option to be available if, like you say ,god forbid, it came to that. Or, just in general believing that the choice be there for those who may end up needing that option....
Very good post. I think a lot of people feel this way, not wanting an abortion for themselves, however wanting the option to be available if, like you say ,god forbid, it came to that. Or, just in general believing that the choice be there for those who may end up needing that option....
Also, a baby brought to the NICU for "comfort measures" is different than a baby or fetus (I'm not into semantics, particularly on this issue!) who dies in the delivery room. As far as the NICU is concerned, we have certainly had pre-term comfort measures (as well as term babies who, for one reason or another, are incompatible with life) on our units, and I have only seen compassionate, tender nursing care in these instances. I cannot say that these babies have been held until they took their last breath (unfortunately, not always possible in the busy NICU, but we certainly do what we can and often more than you'd realize), but the treatment of these infants as far as I've witnessed has been more than humane. 
Rocky_Mtn_Emt
12 Posts
Ok, well I wasn't going to touch this one but I just have to add my 2cents.
I am a Christian and I would generally consider myself pro life however that being said.
I have been involved with people who believed that all forms of birth control were forms of abortion and continued to have baby after baby some having downs babies and continued having babies, and others having nervous breakdowns because they just couldn't handle it, and not feeling like they could take control over not having any more because of a religious belief they had or had been taught. To me that is just wrong!
As far as abortions I don't agree with PB abortions that is murder IMO. I also feel like abortion is so easily accessible that women are using it as a form of birth control and that too is wrong IMO. If you don't have the discipline to take BC or use a form of it get an IUD or other semi permanent form.
I have a baby and I know from the fist HPT I called it a baby it was a baby it was my baby though not planned, I loved it!! it had a heart beat, and I can't imagine having to choose to take that babies life, but if I had found out that there was a serious birth defect, then I would have had to make that choice, and I would have based it on the quality of life for that child as well as survival chances and a ton or prayer. As far as NICU for preemies, I have never been in that position so I can't say what I would do, but I would think long and hard about subjecting my baby to that treatment.
I am tired of being lumped together with extreme religious and pro lifers, I believe there is a place for an abortion though I pray that I never have to make that choice. I don't feel that mothers are getting all the information and support that they need in order to make this HUGE life changing decision. There are SO many people out there that want babies and can't have them that would love the opportunity to adopt and I think that is a definite option that should be encouraged in healthy normal babies who's mother either can't or won't raise them.
I just can't imagine leaving a baby to die alone wrapped in a blanket or even not wrapped! there is something in me that wants to save life, and I know that sometimes that is just not possible, but it doesn't keep me from wanting to.
Ok so I am done now, I just couldn't leave this one alone.
Rocky Mtn EMT