Hearing on H.R. 4292, the "Born Alive Infant Protection Act of 2000"
July 20, 2000
I am a Registered Nurse who has worked in the Labor & Delivery Department at Christ Hospital in Oak Lawn, Illinois, for the past five years. Christ Hospital performs abortions on women in their second or even third trimesters of pregnancy. Sometimes the babies being aborted are healthy, and sometimes they are not.
The method of abortion that Christ Hospital uses is called "induced labor abortion," also now known as "live birth abortion." This type of abortion can be performed different ways, but the goal always is to cause a pregnant woman's cervix to open so that she will deliver a premature baby who dies during the birth process or soon afterward. The way that induced abortion is most often executed at my hospital is by the physician inserting a medication called Cytotec into the birth canal close to the cervix. Cytotec irritates the cervix and stimulates it to open. When this occurs, the small, preterm baby drops out of the uterus, oftentimes alive. It is not uncommon for one of these live aborted babies to linger for an hour or two or even longer. One of them once lived for almost eight hours.
In the event that a baby is aborted alive, he or she receives no medical assessments or care but is only given what my hospital calls "comfort care." "Comfort care" is defined as keeping the baby warm in a blanket until he or she dies, although even this minimal compassion is not always provided. It is not required that these babies be held during their short lives.
One night, a nursing co-worker was taking an aborted Down's Syndrome baby who was born alive to our Soiled Utility Room because his parents did not want to hold him, and she did not have time to hold him. I could not bear the thought of this suffering child dying alone in a Soiled Utility Room, so I cradled and rocked him for the 45 minutes that he lived. He was 21 to 22 weeks old, weighed about ½ pound, and was about 10 inches long. He was too weak to move very much, expending any energy he had trying to breathe. Toward the end he was so quiet that I couldn't tell if he was still alive unless I held him up to the light to see if his heart was still beating through his chest wall. After he was pronounced dead, we folded his little arms across his chest, wrapped him in a tiny shroud, and carried him to the hospital morgue where all of our dead patients are taken.
Other co-workers have told me many upsetting stories about live aborted babies whom they have cared for. I was told about an aborted baby who was supposed to have Spina bifida but was delivered with an intact spine. Another nurse is haunted by the memory of an aborted baby who came out weighing much more than expected ~ almost two pounds. She is haunted because she doesn't know if she made a mistake by not getting that baby medical help. A Support Associate told me about a live aborted baby who was left to die on the counter of the Soiled Utility Room wrapped in a disposable towel. This baby was accidentally thrown into the garbage, and when they later were going through the trash to find the baby, the baby fell out of the towel and on to the floor.
I was recently told about a situation by a nurse who said, "I can't stop thinking about it." She had a patient who was 23+ weeks pregnant, and it did not look as if her baby would be able to continue to live inside of her. The baby was healthy and had up to a 39% chance of survival, according to national statistics. But the patient chose to abort. The baby was born alive. If the mother had wanted everything done for her baby, there would have been a neonatologist, pediatric resident, neonatal nurse, and respiratory therapist present for the delivery, and the baby would have been taken to our Neonatal Intensive Care Unit for specialized care. Instead, the only personnel present for this delivery were an obstetrical resident and my co-worker. After delivery the baby, who showed early signs of thriving, was merely wrapped in a blanket and kept in the Labor & Delivery Department until she died 2-1/2 hours later.
Something is very wrong with a legal system that says doctors are mandated to pronounce babies dead but are not mandated to assess babies for life and chances of survival. In other words, our laws currently say that babies have no rights to medical oversight until they are dead. We look the other way and pretend that these babies aren't human while they're alive but human only after they are dead. We issue these babies both birth and death certificates, but it is really only the death certificate that matters. No other children in America are medically abandoned like this.
Abortion is a cancer that is literally killing America. It is killing our children while it is killing our consciences. It began when we took God out of our decision-making and proclaimed that the little beings growing inside of women were "products of conception" and not little girls and little boys. Who should be surprised that we keep pushing the envelope so that now we are aborting these "products of conception" alive? I even work at a hospital named "Christ" that does this very thing! It is beyond me to comprehend that we're doing what we're doing now, and so I can't even imagine what horrible ways we will think of next to torture our children. Please help put an end to this by proclaiming infants as American human being homo sapiens with the same legal and medical rights that you and I big people have. Thank you.
Now a question for the pro-lifers: Don't you think a more effective way of reducing the number of abortions would be to provide contraception and unbiased help for women who find themselves pregnant and alone, rather than yelling that people who believe abortion should be legal think like Nazis did? Just for the sake of effectiveness, I have found people are more willing to listen when they aren't being judged.
I think another generalization is being made. Because one person compared abortion to Nazi's it doesn't mean we all "yell" or compare. I don't want to be listed in the extreme category any more than a pro-choicer wants to be generalized as a Nazi.
As far as "throwing the 1st stone"...I would never judge someone b/c they chose or are choosing to have an abortion. I would choose not to take part in the procedure. I would love the opportunity before hand to educate them on their developing baby and on the procedure that will be used. Supposedly, this is the doctor's job. The woman and the baby deserve to know exactly what is going to happen. Tell me, is everyone who has an abortion told everything? Are they shown how much their baby is developed at the point they are at? Are they adequately talked through the exact procedure that the doctor chooses to use? Not at my hospital. It is the nurse's job, after the procedure has already been initiated to make sure the parents know that this baby may come out breathing or with a heartbeat. Thank God we don't have to deal with viable babies. We have to have a clear idea what the parents want to do at that point as far as seeing the baby or holding the baby they just made a major "choice" for. "Good reason" or not in their mind I think they should face it. But, I would never push the issue.
Lastly, I want to address the religion issue. Because I know that a baby inside is the same as the baby outside I don't feel that I am "touting" my religion to anyone. My religion has nothing to do with my belief that I don't believe in murder. A baby is a human and I don't think it should be killed at 25 weeks gestation or 25 weeks of extra-uterine life.
I don't mean any confusion with pre-term birth. That happens and my heart goes out to those women.
I am 100% against any abortion at any stage(and I know many will say "then don't have one"). I just want the public to be educated and not just have made the wrong decision with the wrong man, or forgot to use birth control, or need to focus on their carreer....
Ok, sorry so long. My point is that education is important!! Don't judge me and I won't judge you.
How much are people "told everything" about ANY surgical procedure they have? I've seen people have cardiac caths when it was the first time that particular physician had ever done one (he was being coached by another physician), and you can bet next month's salary that no one "informed" the patient of THAT!!! How many of us actually make sure that surgical patients read all the fine print on the op permit -- you know, where it goes on about how you can bleed to death, or develop a fatal infection, or just react to the anesthesia and die on the table??
If someone comes into the hospital to have a hip replaced, all he or she really wants to know is that the hip is going to be replaced. If a woman is seeking an abortion, she has already thought about and made that decision, and all she really wants to know at that point is that she's not going to be pregnant anymore when the procedure is over.
It seems to me that the only time people really get whipped about the patient finding out "everything" about a procedure is when pro-life people want to make women who are trying to terrminate a pregnancy feel guilty ...
Specializes in Case Mgmt; Mat/Child, Critical Care.
I agree that people should be educated and informed....about any medical procedure. This whole...let's show the pregnant woman about to have an abortion pictures of a perfectly formed tiny baby, so, yeah, she'll change her mind on the spot! Or let's, step by step, go over every detail of the procedure from start to finish to scare and possibly "shame" her into jumping up and leaving! NOT! That's cruel IMO.
To be honest, I don't believe that a woman seeking an abortion WANTS to know every minute detail of the procedure. For most women this is one of the hardest decisions they have ever had to make. It has taken a lot of soul searching and anguish. As for the women that do use abortion as a form of "birth control"...do you really think this is going to have any effect on them anyway?
As elkpark said, we don't do this with any other type of procedure, normally, so why this one? I know that I recently had surgery, and I really did not want to know all the details, I just wanted to know that I would be OK when it was all over.
That is the point, a pregnant woman who is having an abortion does not want to think about the procedure to that extent...she wants to know that , she will be OK when it's over, and most importantly, to her, that she will not be pregnant, when it's all over. Period.
Whether it's "right or wrong" is nobody's business...YOUR morality does not apply here.
These tactics are just stall mechanisms by pro-lifers, hoping to intimidate a woman already in a very vulnerable state.
Specializes in Case Mgmt; Mat/Child, Critical Care.
Originally posted by kastas
I am 100% against any abortion at any stage(and I know many will say "then don't have one"). I just want the public to be educated and not just have made the wrong decision with the wrong man, or forgot to use birth control, or need to focus on their carreer....
Ok, sorry so long. My point is that education is important!! Don't judge me and I won't judge you.
I respect your opinion. I am confused about something, or have a question for you....
I would venture to say that most women, regardless of their educational level, understand that being pregnant will lead to having a baby. Not all women are going to know all the different developmental stages from week to week of their gestation, true. Certainly, a woman should be counselled beforehand...in terms of, realizing that this is indeed going to result in the loss of the embryo/fetus, certain level of discomfort involved, future methods of birth control, lifestyle choices, etc.
However, so a woman, as in your example, ends up pregnant, after being with the "wrong man" or her birth control failed, or economically she can not undergo pregnancy/labor/delivery and recovery, much less a newborn. How is showing her pictures of embryos and fetuses and step by step explaining the actual procedure supposed to "help" her? Don't you think she already knows that if this pregnancy continues a newborn will result? Really, I'm not trying to be sarcastic or flip here, I just don't know how this is productive to the woman....she's going to see this picture and say..."oh, that's what's inside of me...of course, now I want a baby...." I just don't understand that.
I think another generalization is being made. Because one person compared abortion to Nazi's it doesn't mean we all "yell" or compare. I don't want to be listed in the extreme category any more than a pro-choicer wants to be generalized as a Nazi.
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I don't meant to generalize that YOU are like that. What I mean is, don't you think the pro-life cause as a whole is hurt by people who yell and scream and judge? Do you personally think it would be better to provide support to women in crisis or try to scare and shame them like some people do?
Cause I can tell you from personal experience, I know some people who leave the pro-life camp because of the actions of some. My parents were adamantly pro-life, but changed their views after being at the picketing of a clinic. They said they couldn't be a part of it after hearing what some of the picketers were saying.
My point is that her pregnancy isn't just going to "result" in a baby. It is a baby. Why why why is it ok for her to kill this baby inside of her but it is not ok to kill it after it is born? I just don't understand.
At our hospital, I don't know if it is law or not, if you deliver a viable infant you have to attempt to save it. The parents don't have the choice to say, "no, just let her die in my arms peacefully." BUT, if she had chosen to abort the baby yesterday than she wouldn't have had to worry about that agony.
Really, I am not trying to stir things up. I understand that the "choice" for her is agonizing. But, what I don't understand is why she can have that "choice" in the first place to kill another human being.
I don't meant to generalize that YOU are like that. What I mean is, don't you think the pro-life cause as a whole is hurt by people who yell and scream and judge? Do you personally think it would be better to provide support to women in crisis or try to scare and shame them like some people do?
Cause I can tell you from personal experience, I know some people who leave the pro-life camp because of the actions of some. My parents were adamantly pro-life, but changed their views after being at the picketing of a clinic. They said they couldn't be a part of it after hearing what some of the picketers were saying.
Yes! The cause is definetly hurt by these people. I would never take part in a picketing no matter how strong my feelings are. Like I said, I won't judge that girl....I just hope that at that clinic she is truely getting the beforehand counseling that she needs. Not the one sided, money hungry kind. (not generalizing, just mean that the Dr is getting paid, why should he take that money out of his pocket?)
I do help to provide that support. I volunteer for a wonderful organization that provides this support. We will help them find a dr, clothing, money, a place to live, what ever we can do to help. I never shame them or try to scare them. I let our clients know that I care and that I am here to help them.
Did your parents completely go pro-choice? Because of the extremists? There are extremists in every thing we take part in. We just pray for them and pray for the women having to deal with them. I am not them. I try to educate and support.
There are very strict definitions of viable. I would doubt that your facility would be required to treat a 24 weeker agressively if that went against the parents' wishes. There is a very good reason for that: babies under a certain gestational age are not meant to survive outside the uterus. That's why a baby is not the same to me as a fetus at 10 weeks and that's why women have the right to chose abortion, but not to murder a newborn. That's why the medical terminology is different (because they are not the same).
Morally, you may feel they are equal, and that's a perfectly valid opinion, but that's very different from being "the same".
Specializes in Case Mgmt; Mat/Child, Critical Care.
Originally posted by kastas
My point is that her pregnancy isn't just going to "result" in a baby. It is a baby. Why why why is it ok for her to kill this baby inside of her but it is not ok to kill it after it is born? I just don't understand.
At our hospital, I don't know if it is law or not, if you deliver a viable infant you have to attempt to save it. The parents don't have the choice to say, "no, just let her die in my arms peacefully." BUT, if she had chosen to abort the baby yesterday than she wouldn't have had to worry about that agony.
Really, I am not trying to stir things up. I understand that the "choice" for her is agonizing. But, what I don't understand is why she can have that "choice" in the first place to kill another human being.
Well, I guess the simple answer is to say that womens' rights are protected under the law and it IS a choice that is available. However, I think the "moral" issue that causes such dilemma is the disagreement on 'it is a baby, it isn't a baby'. Personally, I don't believe that an 8 wk embryo is a "baby", nor is a 12 wk fetus, IMO. As far as I'm concerned, that fetus exists because of the woman carrying it. If you were to take out that group of cells, it would not live on it's own.
But it doesn't really matter at what point I think a fetus is a baby, or you, or anyone else, for that matter. That's why I said,ultimately the pregnancy will result in a baby. The pregnant woman seeking or choosing to have an abortion KNOWS this! And that is the choice the pregnant woman is making, ultimately to have a baby or not.
It is a matter of semantics and another way to cloud the issue as far as I'm concerned. Remember, we all do not share the same "morals" or belief systems.
As far as I'm concerned any education to be done is better off being done educating young girls and women PRIOR to their becoming pregnant and being in a position to make these choices. And, certainly, for women seeking help, advice and aren't sure of their options it is wonderful that there are progrms to help them. But it just isn't the answer for everyone.
I worked at the University of Wisconsin Hospital in the early 80s as an RN. I worked in the Ob/Gyn unit for 6 years, where we did second trimester abortions every Tuesday and Thursday. We would section off 6 rooms at the end of the unit. One nurse was in charge of all 6 patients. An ultrasound was performed to verify that the fetus was indeed 23 weeks or less. Then the MD would perform an amniocentesis, injecting urea and prostaglandins into the amniotic sac. the urea would terminate the life of the baby. The nurse would listen for fetal heart tones until she confirmed that the heart had stopped. The prostaglandins would eventually induce labor, however, sometimes this would have to be augmented by IV pitocin after 24 hours of non-delivery. The woman was given Morphine IV or Fentanyl IV for pain throughout the treatment. The dead fetus would be delivered onto the bed by the nurse. The placenta would usually quickly follow, although sometimes a currettage would be needed. We would call the MD for this and the woman would be wheeled down to the treatment room. Occasionally we would have a lacerated cervix that needed to be repaired. The placenta and dead fetus would be wrapped and sent to pathology. (by law they are cremated) The woman would be fed and comforted as needed. Usually someone stayed with the woman throughout the procedure (usually a mother or boyfriend) The woman would be instructed on birthcontrol and usually left a few hours later.
Most of the patients were young girls from the Chicago area. The UW Hospital in Madison is about 2 hours north of Christ Hospital. My youngest patient was an 11 y.o. incest victim. Some of the infants had defects or Downs Syndrome.
I did have one infant come out alive. It was a twin. We called a code and did everything we could to save the infant which died shortly after. We increased the urea dosages after that, so it wouldn't happen again. All patients would sign a consent form prior to the procedure stating that in the event of a live birth the hospital would do everything possible to save the infant.
We treated infertility patients on this floor. InVitro fertilization was done at this Hospital also.
There were two older nurses that did not participate in these procedures because of their strong religious beliefs. They were never harrassed because of this. All newly hired nurses were informed ahead of time that they would be required to perform these abortions.
I just want to make one statement about the hypocrisies that occur around us. We are allowed to make decisions about the life and death of our unborn children, yet we are not allowed to end our own life with medical help when we are in great pain, near death, and have no quality of life. I know that these topics are in some ways unrelated, but in many ways they are one and the same. We all have our own views on these topics. I just have to say that I cannot believe that in some institutions these aborted babies are left in dirty utility rooms. I could not work in such a facility. Although each person has a certain legal right to make their own choices, institutions must treat these babies with the dignity that they deserve...they are human and to discard these babies as "trash" is inhumane.
Now a question for the pro-lifers: Don't you think a more effective way of reducing the number of abortions would be to provide contraception and unbiased help for women who find themselves pregnant and alone, rather than yelling that people who believe abortion should be legal think like Nazis did? Just for the sake of effectiveness, I have found people are more willing to listen when they aren't being judged.
Technically, since Hitler OUTLAWED ABORTION!, Prolife/antichoicers are more comparable to Nazis then Prochoicer/antilifers are.
Please check the correctness of the comparisons that are made.
I refuse to outlaw abortion, as I feel that it is the woman's choice. But it is also my choice to refuse to perform/assist with them also. I do not believe in abortion and would never have one. But I have supported friends of mine that have had them.
I dream of a day when all young men and women are properly educated about sex/birth control and when they are capable of saying no to unsafe sex and if they do have sex, insisting on birth control, used properly by both genders. But I doubt that will have happen.
I do not feel that abortion is a sin, but I feel that it is a waste and inately damaging to the individuals involved. Is it more damaging than giving birth in some circumstances - maybe yes and maybe no. But that damage of either unexpected birth/abortion are both highly unnecessary damages to incur, barring criminal actions in this day and age.
My beliefs are based on my religion, after much debate of meaning of biblical writings and passages.
kastas, BSN, RN
137 Posts
I think another generalization is being made. Because one person compared abortion to Nazi's it doesn't mean we all "yell" or compare. I don't want to be listed in the extreme category any more than a pro-choicer wants to be generalized as a Nazi.
As far as "throwing the 1st stone"...I would never judge someone b/c they chose or are choosing to have an abortion. I would choose not to take part in the procedure. I would love the opportunity before hand to educate them on their developing baby and on the procedure that will be used. Supposedly, this is the doctor's job. The woman and the baby deserve to know exactly what is going to happen. Tell me, is everyone who has an abortion told everything? Are they shown how much their baby is developed at the point they are at? Are they adequately talked through the exact procedure that the doctor chooses to use? Not at my hospital. It is the nurse's job, after the procedure has already been initiated to make sure the parents know that this baby may come out breathing or with a heartbeat. Thank God we don't have to deal with viable babies. We have to have a clear idea what the parents want to do at that point as far as seeing the baby or holding the baby they just made a major "choice" for. "Good reason" or not in their mind I think they should face it. But, I would never push the issue.
Lastly, I want to address the religion issue. Because I know that a baby inside is the same as the baby outside I don't feel that I am "touting" my religion to anyone. My religion has nothing to do with my belief that I don't believe in murder. A baby is a human and I don't think it should be killed at 25 weeks gestation or 25 weeks of extra-uterine life.
I don't mean any confusion with pre-term birth. That happens and my heart goes out to those women.
I am 100% against any abortion at any stage(and I know many will say "then don't have one"). I just want the public to be educated and not just have made the wrong decision with the wrong man, or forgot to use birth control, or need to focus on their carreer....
Ok, sorry so long. My point is that education is important!! Don't judge me and I won't judge you.