Valid Reasons To Not Get Vaccinated

toomuchbaloney · Aug 16, 2021

16 minutes ago, Alex Kowalcyk said:

I would argue that we didn't treat patients so poorly before, and so we have introduced a new variable that confounds our ability to compare between outcomes now and outcomes of any prior flu season. By treating them poorly, I refer to less interaction and assessment and updates from doctors and staff, fewer and longer response times to basic needs and requests due to nurses choosing to "cluster care" and the extend of work and time required for donning and doffing, anxiety-provoking negative suggestions (enculturated by society, and oftentimes unintentional), dehumanization by isolation in a ward, perhaps a prohibition on ambulating through their units, isolation by prohibiting family visitations, who are most importantly their greatest advocates for ethical, humane care and continuity of care and accountability.

Did you just refuse to acknowledge that we are in a pandemic and that fact alone is having a rather dramatic and negative impact on our health system?

guest1163268 · Aug 16, 2021

2 hours ago, Alex Kowalcyk said:

We're heading towards a paradigm-shift. Foundational premises need to be questioned perhaps more than details. And it's time to remove the horse blinders, get rid of tunnel-vision, and study a greater variety of subjects to understand what a human is, if a healthcare provider is to be regarded as a healer, or if not than at least as a respected leader in society as doctors used to. Could doctors spend more time with patients and using their stethoscopes than behind a clipboard or computer screen? Should we treat every patient with heart failure like a rubric, with their course of treatment already determined for them by a protocol (with help from the insurance companies and drug marketers) before they even make it through the ER door? Do we have the critical lense and comprehension of probability and statistics to be able to conclude for ourselves what methods of research allow for a true random sampling and can therefore produce conclusive evidence if statistically significant? Can we even extrapolate results found in a study from one location involving such and such people, to other people who are themselves individuals. People are not carbon copies of one another, and doctors used to rely more on their decades of gained expertise in physical assessment, and have the autonomy to treat each case individually rather than be bound by mandated protocols to receive reimbursement. Do doctors AND nurses have time, desire, and ambition to be truly independent and autonomous? To hold a moral backbone and not sell their soul to keep their job or earn a promotion? Doctors are watching their own profession erode in front of them without a fight, as it becomes acceptable to 'see' patients via a video screen, as if that were even a comparable substitution for direct physical communication and assessment.

I agree with every single word you wrote and believe me I am anti establishment, anti govt and anti socialism and actually quite conservative, just British conservative! I'm a socialist capitalist. I'm just not anti logic and have a healthy dose of the survival instinct. Evolution runs deep in me!

I will not revolt for revolution sake. I assess everything down to the minutest detail within my own capacity and unless it conforms to LOGIC AND COMMON SENSE, I reject it! To play the game, you have to be in the game!

I have a pretty brilliant life with amazing people in it. Lots of money and CONTROL as much as I can, AND PARENTS who are educated and caring, to guide me. Lots to live for! I am also very grateful, but, I know Covid or similar disasters could rob me of all I have, so I carefully within my ability, guard what I have!

I don't tolerate silliness and luckily nature has blessed me with a large frame and courage enough to make sure that those sorts of people stay away from me. You can't take water out of an empty well, so I am careful about what goes into the well!

Covid isn't going into the well, if I can help it! There are too many other diseases and disasters waiting for me in the future that I will have no control over, but RnA isn't one of them. If the vaccine had come from China or Russia, I would have been very sceptical and perused it even more strongly than I already did the current ones, in fact, I would have waited for a very long time, but I know that economic forces have forced Western countries to be very careful with many regulations re pharmaceutical companies, so with actually knowing the science as well, I knew that the vaccines would be good. The large publicly traded international pharmaceutical companies are extremely well run and regulated by multiple countries which taken together, means lots of safety, is inherent! The science will always be good, the mechanics susceptible to human error occasionally. Like contaminated vats or greed or logistics etc, never the science.

Being a psych nurse, I am very, very, very good at assessing people, especially BAD people! Dr Fauci ticks all the right buttons for credibility! The team he has surrounded himself with, also has the same credibility! They speak the right language and comport themselves correctly. I trust what they are saying. I don't trust anyone who is republican who doesn't denounce everything that the current republican party stands for! If they believe in trump, then doubly so! I would suspect everything they do and say! They wouldn't be around me for long to get the chance to contaminate me!

On this forum there are quite a few very educated, careful people who I trust to do equally good research and their responses are very helpful as well, determining the science! You should listen to them!

jive turkey · Aug 16, 2021

4 hours ago, Alex Kowalcyk said:

I would argue that we didn't treat patients so poorly before, and so we have introduced a new variable that confounds our ability to compare between outcomes now and outcomes of any prior flu season.

My man, some of the things you said aren't exactly right. I agree with you on many things you say philosophically though.

Unless you join the bandwagon and say "everybody get vaccinated" you're going to be met with brick walls on moral high horses uing COVID as a tool to lash out against others.

Individuals who do that are worse than hard core anti vaxxers. I've talked to so many people who were initially unsure about the vaccine become completely turned off by it thanks to vaccine supporters being rude, judgemental, insensitive and condescending towards them. Medical professionals have the talent to be compassionate towards the feelings of others. This pandemic has crippled them. They have become less effective at increasing vaccination rates but more effective at hindering them trying to be correct instead of productive.

toomuchbaloney · Aug 16, 2021

7 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

My man, some of the things you said aren't exactly right. I agree with you on many things you say philosophically though.

Unless you join the bandwagon and say "everybody get vaccinated" you're going to be met with brick walls on moral high horses uing COVID as a tool to lash out against others.

Individuals who do that are worse than hard core anti vaxxers. I've talked to so many people who were initially unsure about the vaccine become completely turned off by it thanks to vaccine supporters being rude, judgemental, insensitive and condescending towards them. Medical professionals have the talent to be compassionate towards the feelings of others. This pandemic has crippled them. They have become less effective at increasing vaccination rates but more effective at hindering them trying to be correct instead of productive.

Are you saying that people are choosing to not vaccinate against covid because some people were mean to them about being unvaccinated? How are medical professionals hindering vaccination rates? Are you talking about the people who are using medical or nursing credentials to spread concern or confusion about the covid vaccines leading to hesitancy or refusal to vaccinate?

jive turkey · Aug 16, 2021

7 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Are you saying that people are choosing to not vaccinate against covid because some people were mean to them about being unvaccinated? How are medical professionals hindering vaccination rates? Are you talking about the people who are using medical or nursing credentials to spread concern or confusion about the covid vaccines leading to hesitancy or refusal to vaccinate?

There are people who want everybody to get vaccinated and talk **** to or about those that don't do it or are concerned.

You also see it in the media, social media, etc.

More plainly put, too many nurses and doctors take to social media or other forms of communicating to the public trashing people that disagree with them while letting their credentials be known. Much of their frustration may be from hard core people fighting the vaccine based on conspiracy theories or politics. But they're having an effect on others who may have otherwise been convinced to take it.

GrumpyRN, NP · Aug 16, 2021

12 hours ago, Alex Kowalcyk said:

We're heading towards a paradigm-shift. Foundational premises need to be questioned perhaps more than details. And it's time to remove the horse blinders, get rid of tunnel-vision, and study a greater variety of subjects to understand what a human is, if a healthcare provider is to be regarded as a healer, or if not than at least as a respected leader in society as doctors used to. Could doctors spend more time with patients and using their stethoscopes than behind a clipboard or computer screen? Should we treat every patient with heart failure like a rubric, with their course of treatment already determined for them by a protocol (with help from the insurance companies and drug marketers) before they even make it through the ER door? Do we have the critical lense and comprehension of probability and statistics to be able to conclude for ourselves what methods of research allow for a true random sampling and can therefore produce conclusive evidence if statistically significant? Can we even extrapolate results found in a study from one location involving such and such people, to other people who are themselves individuals. People are not carbon copies of one another, and doctors used to rely more on their decades of gained expertise in physical assessment, and have the autonomy to treat each case individually rather than be bound by mandated protocols to receive reimbursement. Do doctors AND nurses have time, desire, and ambition to be truly independent and autonomous? To hold a moral backbone and not sell their soul to keep their job or earn a promotion? Doctors are watching their own profession erode in front of them without a fight, as it becomes acceptable to 'see' patients via a video screen, as if that were even a comparable substitution for direct physical communication and assessment.

But the rest of the world does this already. It is only in America with your concentration on money that this has become a problem.

12 hours ago, Alex Kowalcyk said:

...and study a greater variety of subjects to understand what a human is, if a healthcare provider is to be regarded as a healer, or if not than at least as a respected leader in society...

That is called a Shaman. I would rather have someone of science looking after me.

toomuchbaloney · Aug 16, 2021

9 hours ago, jive turkey said:

There are people who want everybody to get vaccinated and talk **** to or about those that don't do it or are concerned.

You also see it in the media, social media, etc.

More plainly put, too many nurses and doctors take to social media or other forms of communicating to the public trashing people that disagree with them while letting their credentials be known. Much of their frustration may be from hard core people fighting the vaccine based on conspiracy theories or politics. But they're having an effect on others who may have otherwise been convinced to take it.

You ARE saying that people are deciding not to vaccinate because doctors and nurses in social media are being rude to them about their reasons for not vaccinating. Are you one of those people?

jive turkey · Aug 16, 2021

2 hours ago, toomuchbaloney said:

You ARE saying that people are deciding not to vaccinate because doctors and nurses in social media are being rude to them about their reasons for not vaccinating. Are you one of those people?

OK, are you messing with me? And I'm being serious. After the numerous posts you've replied to of mine discouraging that, why would you ask if I'm doing it myself?

macawake, MSN · Aug 16, 2021

On 8/16/2021 at 11:20 AM, toomuchbaloney said:

You ARE saying that people are deciding not to vaccinate because doctors and nurses in social media are being rude to them about their reasons for not vaccinating. Are you one of those people?

23 hours ago, jive turkey said:

OK, are you messing with me? And I'm being serious. After the numerous posts you've replied to of mine discouraging that, why would you ask if I'm doing it myself?

English as a fourth language interpreting…

TMB is asking if you are one of the people who has decided to not get vaccinated because nurses and doctors have been rude to you on the internet.

toomuchbaloney · Aug 16, 2021

7 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

OK, are you messing with me? And I'm being serious. After the numerous posts you've replied to of mine discouraging that, why would you ask if I'm doing it myself?

Because you haven't offered any citations which say that previously infected HCWS shouldn't vaccinate because of risk or established immunity or for any reason that isn't a direct contraindication while also being very sensitive to what you feel is mean or sarcastic or unpleasant responses to unvaccinated members. In a clinic setting, that could be considered a "tell" in an interview or encounter. It appears that you aren't vaccinating for reasons other than science, data, evidence or expert analysis and recommendations. That makes this other concern of yours a likely suspect for your motivation to remain unvaccinated during a pandemic.

jive turkey · Aug 16, 2021

14 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Because you haven't offered any citations which say that previously infected HCWS shouldn't vaccinate

Are you messing with me again?

I want to ask a very serious question, does allnurses incentivize you to post here or are you a real person? Because I NEVER said I would submit articles saying NOT to vaccinate. Again, here's what I said:

The primary concerns I've shared with others has to do with how effective the vaccine is for those who have already been infected. I've reviewed studies and reports in that regard

Did you see anything in there where I said I would provide articles saying NOT to vaccinate???? Noooooooo.

I showed you a study regarding natural immunity. All you did was copy the blanket statement at the end. You completely ignored and failed to comment on the rest of it. I could show you 100 articles and you still won't at least try and understand why somebody thinks different than you do. I cited the CDC which said reinfection is rare, but you threw that to the wind too.

I understand why you support vaccines. I acknowledged the favorable data. I'm not one sided about it.

You absolutely refuse to do the same.

I'll make you a deal: I'll provide articles saying don't vaccinate when you show data that previously infected people are getting hospitalized and dying in large numbers

toomuchbaloney · Aug 16, 2021

37 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

I NEVER said I would submit articles saying NOT to vaccinate.

So your intentions were not ever to submit valid reasons to not vaccinate? The entire premise of this thread is to provide valid reasons to not vaccinate...now you are suggesting that such a premise does not imply that you were going to submit articles or citations which supported your decision not to vaccinate. Does that mean that personal opinion and feelings that are contrary to public health recommendations count as valid reasons to not vaccinate, in your view? It seems like that's what you are saying.