Valid Reasons To Not Get Vaccinated

[jive turkey]

Whether you're in support of the COVID vaccine, against it,  or on the fence please use this particular thread to cite credible, evidence-based sources to share with everyone so we can engage in a discussion that revolves around LEARNING.  

I'll start:

The primary concerns I've shared with others have to do with how effective the vaccine is for those who have already been infected.  I've reviewed studies and reports in that regard.  There are medical professionals I've listened to that, in my personal opinion,  don't offer a definitive answer. 

Here are some links to 2 different, I'll start with just 2:

Cleveland Clinic Statement on Previous COVID-19 Infection Research

Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021

[Alex Kowalcyk]

1 hour ago, jive turkey said:

Please share anything you have about this.  Not beberte I disagree but so people can see your not just throwing conspiracy theories out there.  So many people I talk to have this cult like attitude about this vaccine

Https://www.michaelwest.com.au/statin-wars-how-big-pharma-infiltrates-governments-and-the-medical-profession/

Https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dangerous-spin-doctors-7-_b_747325

[GordonGekko, MSN]

Adverse reaction to first shot. Anaphylaxis to Influenza Vaccine.  Hx of Gullian Barre.  

 

 

[toomuchbaloney]

1 hour ago, jive turkey said:

A. I've definitely provided information and sources to help you understand why Im not 100% convinced a previously infected person MUST be vaccinated. If they want to,  cool. If they don't,  I can appreciate why not. 

I've provided sources that support doing it, I've spoken to both sides of the coin, I've said people who had or never had the virus should definitely talk to their provider about getting it. I wear a mask in public,  keep 6+feet, avoid crowds, wash n sanitize often. 

B. You've been one sided on the issue.  Unlike you, I'm not making it my place to tell people only my perspective is correct.   There's not much left to discuss with you.  When you can provide that info I asked you for,  let me know.  

A. You've provided 4 citations, none of which supported your rationale for not vaccinating after infection.  If there's two sides, and on my side it's right to get vaccinated after infection - according to the accountable experts and current knowledge base, doesn't that mean that on your side it's wrong to go unvaccinated after infection in the absence of medical contradiction and especially as a health professional?

B. I'm on the side of the accountable public health experts, the recommendations for prevention of disease spread through vaccination and a sense of community from my fellow countrymen. Is this an issue of personal pride or following the science to achieve public health goals? How should individuals view Public health recommendations during a pandemic?

 

[jive turkey]

11 minutes ago, GordonGekko said:

Adverse reaction to first shot. Anaphylaxis to Influenza Vaccine.  Hx of Gullian Barre.  

 

 

Are you referring to personal experience or reports? Please share links from legitimate sources including date of how prevalent or rare this is.  From what I know these are extremely rare,  flu or COVID vaccine. 

[GordonGekko, MSN]

2 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

Are you referring to personal experience or reports? Please share links from legitimate sources including date of how prevalent or rare this is.  From what I know these are extremely rare,  flu or COVID vaccine. 

I don't know how prevalent or rare it is

This is our protocol in my hospital.  We aren't administering the vaccine to people who have had a hx of GBS or anaphylaxis from influenza vaccine.  I don't know if you will find data regarding how likely it is for someone to get anaphylaxis from Covid vaccines if they have it from influenza vaccine bc who would want to test that?  That is a very small population

 

[Alex Kowalcyk]

1 hour ago, jive turkey said:

Are you referring to personal experience or reports? Please share links from legitimate sources including date of how prevalent or rare this is.  From what I know these are extremely rare,  flu or COVID vaccine. 

On my last travel assignment that was deemed CRISIS status for COVID, I arrived in the aftermath of their surge and through my 13 weeks I ended up taking care of maybe 3-4 COVID patients on telemetry, and zero in ICU. But I had one ICU patient there who was intubated post-anaphylaxis the day after getting the vaccine.

[toomuchbaloney]

9 minutes ago, Alex Kowalcyk said:

On my last travel assignment that was deemed CRISIS status for COVID, I arrived in the aftermath of their surge and through my 13 weeks I ended up taking care of maybe 3-4 COVID patients on telemetry, and zero in ICU. But I had one ICU patient there who was intubated post-anaphylaxis the day after getting the vaccine.

Was that anaphylaxis patient a woman, by chance? At least anecdotally, women are more likely than men to experience anaphylaxis.  I didn't look up the actual comparative data. 

[guest1163268]

5 minutes ago, Alex Kowalcyk said:

On my last travel assignment that was deemed CRISIS status for COVID, I arrived in the aftermath of their surge and through my 13 weeks I ended up taking care of maybe 3-4 COVID patients on telemetry, and zero in ICU. But I had one ICU patient there who was intubated post-anaphylaxis the day after getting the vaccine.

Dude what happens to you guys re perspective? I have really tried to understand. Tell you what, why don't you turn the tables and analyze us. Not just the trivial, mundane stuff like liberal, socialist stuff etc but, like a sensible analysis of what makes us think the way we do? Why is it that the majority of health care professionals think like us? Why did trump get tx when he got ill instead of riding it out? 

It's obvious that you are reading and trying to make sense of the science, but what's causing your people to see information and logic so differently from us? 

[jive turkey]

2 hours ago, GordonGekko said:

I don't know how prevalent or rare it is

This is our protocol in my hospital.  We aren't administering the vaccine to people who have had a hx of GBS or anaphylaxis from influenza vaccine.  I don't know if you will find data regarding how likely it is for someone to get anaphylaxis from Covid vaccines if they have it from influenza vaccine bc who would want to test that?  That is a very small population

 

There wasn't any other text with your original message and I misunderstood what you were saying. Thank you for clarifying though.  

[Alex Kowalcyk]

1 hour ago, Curious1997 said:

Dude what happens to you guys re perspective? I have really tried to understand. Tell you what, why don't you turn the tables and analyze us. Not just the trivial, mundane stuff like liberal, socialist stuff etc but, like a sensible analysis of what makes us think the way we do? Why is it that the majority of health care professionals think like us? Why did trump get tx when he got ill instead of riding it out? 

It's obvious that you are reading and trying to make sense of the science, but what's causing your people to see information and logic so differently from us? 

We're heading towards a paradigm-shift. Foundational premises need to be questioned perhaps more than details. And it's time to remove the horse blinders, get rid of tunnel-vision, and study a greater variety of subjects to understand what a human is, if a healthcare provider is to be regarded as a healer, or if not than at least as a respected leader in society as doctors used to. Could doctors spend more time with patients and using their stethoscopes than behind a clipboard or computer screen? Should we treat every patient with heart failure like a rubric, with their course of treatment already determined for them by a protocol (with help from the insurance companies and drug marketers) before they even make it through the ER door? Do we have the critical lense and comprehension of probability and statistics to be able to conclude for ourselves what methods of research allow for a true random sampling and can therefore produce conclusive evidence if statistically significant? Can we even extrapolate results found in a study from one location involving such and such people, to other people who are themselves individuals. People are not carbon copies of one another, and doctors used to rely more on their decades of gained expertise in physical assessment, and have the autonomy to treat each case individually rather than be bound by mandated protocols to receive reimbursement. Do doctors AND nurses have time, desire, and ambition to be truly independent and autonomous? To hold a moral backbone and not sell their soul to keep their job or earn a promotion? Doctors are watching their own profession erode in front of them without a fight, as it becomes acceptable to 'see' patients via a video screen, as if that were even a comparable substitution for direct physical communication and assessment. 

[toomuchbaloney]

7 minutes ago, Alex Kowalcyk said:

Doctors are watching their own profession erode in front of them without a fight, as it becomes acceptable to 'see' patients via a video screen, as if that were even a comparable substitution for direct physical communication and assessment. 

To begin and stay on topic, doctors are vaccinated against covid in the USA at a higher rate than nurses. 

Would you agree that the last 18 months have included quite a number of substitutions for direct physical communication and assessment, because we are struggling through a pandemic with a novel coronavirus? 

[Alex Kowalcyk]

47 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

To begin and stay on topic, doctors are vaccinated against covid in the USA at a higher rate than nurses. 

Would you agree that the last 18 months have included quite a number of substitutions for direct physical communication and assessment, because we are struggling through a pandemic with a novel coronavirus? 

I would argue that we didn't treat patients so poorly before, and so we have introduced a new variable that confounds our ability to compare between outcomes now and outcomes of any prior flu season. By treating them poorly, I refer to less interaction and assessment and updates from doctors and staff, fewer and longer response times to basic needs and requests due to nurses choosing to "cluster care" and the extend of work and time required for donning and doffing, anxiety-provoking negative suggestions (enculturated by society, and oftentimes unintentional), dehumanization by isolation in a ward, perhaps a prohibition on ambulating through their units, isolation by prohibiting family visitations, who are most importantly their greatest advocates for ethical, humane care and continuity of care and accountability.