Valid Reasons To Not Get Vaccinated

guest1163268 · Aug 15, 2021

2 hours ago, allnurses Admin Team said:

Before this thread implodes ....

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I think this is a topic of life and death and should be given the leeway being that we are medical professionals and a science based profession, to remonstrate strongly to those that post mis/dis information!

Communication from whatever source is the reason those who are ignorant of the dangers have adopted their positions and it's more than likely that others have stood by POLITELY through political correctness or misplaced civility, that allowed them to endanger many with their poisonous statements!

You don't ask someone who is holding a gun to your head politely, to please don't kill me, if you have the opportunity to hurt them enough to allow you to get away!

Consequences occur in almost every aspect of life, including biologically! The virus is not employing CIVILITY or Political Correctness!

It's been my experience that a serious enough consequence can disavow almost everyone, except the pathological! I think it's cowardly and irresponsible to allow anti science/vaxxers a platform to spew their poison, especially as it's almost always derived from a skewed perspective from a myriad of pathological reasons and not call them on it! Their dangerous viewpoints doesn't just end with antivaxxing, it involves many other equally bizarre beliefs.

In my personal life I don't allow an anti vaxxer the opportunity to stay around me for long, because I will embarrass or shame them into leaving my space. I consider such people EXTREMELY DANGEROUS and similar to someone persuading another to try something potentially fatally poisonous!

In the real world it's a crime to try to persuade someone to harm themselves or others! Spewing antivaxxer sentiment IMO comes under that definition!

toomuchbaloney · Aug 15, 2021

47 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

Is your position that a previously infected person take the vaccine anyway just in case?

Yes.

GrumpyRN, NP · Aug 15, 2021

On 8/14/2021 at 8:39 PM, jive turkey said:

The primary concerns I've shared with others has to do with how effective the vaccine is for those who have already been infected. I've reviewed studies and reports in that regard. There are medical professionals I've listened to that, in my personal opinion, don't offer a definitive answer.

On 8/14/2021 at 9:56 PM, jive turkey said:

Additional sources of information are welcome.

On 8/14/2021 at 10:13 PM, jive turkey said:

As for me, the question is less about how safe it is and more about justifying taking a vaccine after an infection considering data from different sources offer contrary results or information that is inconclusive, albeit they all conclude it is safe and recommended.

On 8/14/2021 at 11:32 PM, jive turkey said:

My comment suggests none of what you asked. It says my concern is "more about justifying taking a vaccine after an infection considering data from different sources offer contrary results or information that is inconclusive".

Is your position that a previously infected person take the vaccine anyway just in case?

Done the work for you.

Some sources that say it is better to get vaccinated even if you have had the covid.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/people-whove-had-covid-19-should-still-get-vaccinated-heres-why

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/immune-response-vaccination-after-covid-19

https://www.CDC.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56538983

jive turkey · Aug 15, 2021

On 8/15/2021 at 7:29 AM, GrumpyRN said:

Done the work for you.

Some sources that say it is better to get vaccinated even if you have had the covid.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/people-whove-had-covid-19-should-still-get-vaccinated-heres-why

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/immune-response-vaccination-after-covid-19

https://www.CDC.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56538983

Thank you for sharing.

You are correct, just as I have discovered and shared myself there are those studies that suggest vaccination improved immune response for previously infected and some that say it's not or the same.

A more definitive answer I've been looking for has to do with one of the major selling points for the vaccine which is the hospitalization and death rate for unvaccinated. Id like more data about hospitalization and death among those who were:

Previously infected

Unvaccinated

Were and were not hospitalized during the first infection.

Here's some information about reinfection, I'll limit it to 2. Mixed answers from my view. I didn't find much in terms of how many people are hospitalized and dying after the 2nd infection. please share if you have some.

https://www.CDC.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/reinfection.html

https://www.medpagetoday.com/idsa/general-infectious-diseases/92828

jive turkey · Aug 15, 2021

10 hours ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Yes. [Take the vaccine just in case, even if previously infected]

I understand you strongly advocate for taking the vaccine even for those previously infected. When it comes down to doing it "just in case" can you see why people would be hesitant if the best answer we have to offer why they should do it is just in case?

Large numbers of the reinfected being hospitalized and dying would make a stronger case. Many articles I see cite a reinfection rate of about 1% without dying. Even the CDC says it's rare. Please share anything you find to the contrary.

toomuchbaloney · Aug 15, 2021

@jive turkey do you believe that coronoviruses, in general, generate long term immunity in humans after infection? The data has demonstrated that previously infected individuals can and do get reinfection and some develop significant disease in the second go round. The vaccines would reduce that risk for you, they are safe and effective. There's no need to gamble with a VPD.

https://jim.bmj.com/content/69/6/1253

toomuchbaloney · Aug 15, 2021

11 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

I understand you strongly advocate for taking the vaccine even for those previously infected. When it comes down to doing it "just in case" can you see why people would be hesitant if the best answer we have to offer why they should do it is just in case?

Large numbers of the reinfected being hospitalized and dying would make a stronger case. Many articles I see cite a reinfection rate of about 1% without dying. Even the CDC says it's rare. Please share anything you find to the contrary.

Don't be disingenuous. The "just in case" language that you apparently find unacceptable was entirely your own. You created the premise in the question that you now criticize.

No, you share the articles that are telling you that it's recommended to forego vaccination because of previous infection, I've offered evidence that more than adequately answers your fears and concerns.

guest1163268 · Aug 15, 2021

38 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

I understand you strongly advocate for taking the vaccine even for those previously infected. When it comes down to doing it "just in case" can you see why people would be hesitant if the best answer we have to offer why they should do it is just in case?

Large numbers of the reinfected being hospitalized and dying would make a stronger case. Many articles I see cite a reinfection rate of about 1% without dying. Even the CDC says it's rare. Please share anything you find to the contrary.

Don’t you think it's better to be safe than sorry in case they all come back as zombies looking like Mitch McConnell?

Who are you going to blame then? ??????

jive turkey · Aug 15, 2021

14 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Don't be disingenuous. The "just in case" language that you apparently find unacceptable was entirely your own. You created the premise in the question that you now criticize.

No, you share the articles that are telling you that it's recommended to forego vaccination because of previous infection, I've offered evidence that more than adequately answers your fears and concerns.

I'm not being disingenuous. I asked if you felt it should be done just in case and you replied with yes. If you felt there was a more compelling argument, that was when I was waiting for you to offer it.

I never said I had fears, I said concerns.

NO article I shared suggested forgoing vaccination.

You have shared articles that support your position. The challenge is, there are articles that speak to the contrary. All of them generally conclude that more information is needed but suggest taking the vaccine if eligible.

25 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

@jive turkey do you believe that coronoviruses, in general, generate long term immunity in humans after infection? The data has demonstrated that previously infected individuals can and do get reinfection and some develop significant disease in the second go round. The vaccines would reduce that risk for you, they are safe and effective. There's no need to gamble with a VPD.

https://jim.bmj.com/content/69/6/1253

I wasn't disputing the risk for reinfection. That's possible vaccine or not. I'd like a smoking gun. Something that shows people who have been infected are getting reinfected and hospitalized/dying in large numbers OR that the vaccine is definitely and consistently better than natural immunity. Then I'd have fewer concerns.

toomuchbaloney · Aug 15, 2021

6 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

I'm not being disingenuous. I asked if you felt it should be done just in case and you replied with yes. If you felt there was a more compelling argument, that was when I was waiting for you to offer it.

I never said I had fears, I said concerns.

NO article I shared suggested forgoing vaccination.

You have shared articles that support your position. The challenge is, there are articles that speak to the contrary. All of them generally conclude that more information is needed but suggest taking the vaccine if eligible.

I wasn't disputing the risk for reinfection. That's possible vaccine or not. I'd like a smoking gun. Something that shows people who have been infected are getting reinfected and hospitalized/dying in large numbers OR that the vaccine is definitely and consistently better than natural immunity. Then I'd have fewer concerns.

Yes, you are being disingenuous. Why? Because I've never contended that we should do something "just because", I merely responded to your question and the only reasoning you provided was "just because".

The challenge is for you to provide credible sources which recommend caution or concern with vaccinating following a covid infection. You've mentioned them but have yet to share them.

toomuchbaloney · Aug 15, 2021

On 8/15/2021 at 8:36 AM, jive turkey said:

I wasn't disputing the risk for reinfection. That's possible vaccine or not. I'd like a smoking gun. Something that shows people who have been infected are getting reinfected and hospitalized/dying in large numbers OR that the vaccine is definitely and consistently better than natural immunity. Then I'd have fewer concerns.

Really? So what is the likelihood that a vaccinated person who is exposed to covid and develops illness will be hospitalized or die as compared to an unvaccinated person? You've seen that data and that has convinced you that you really don't need to vaccinate if you've previously tested positive? The challenge is for you to share that data because you've been provided expert opinion which is contrary to your beliefs and concerns in this thread. We want to see the science and evidence that makes you concerned about getting a vaccination after infection.

jive turkey · Aug 15, 2021

3 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Yes, you are being disingenuous. Why? Because I've never contended that we should do something "just because", I merely responded to your question and the only reasoning you provided was "just because".

The challenge is for you to provide credible sources which recommend caution or concern with vaccinating following a covid infection. You've mentioned them but have yet to share them.

As far as the just in case, let's agree we misunderstood each other and drop that.

I never said there was or that I would present articles that would advise against vaccinating.

I'm going to speak more plainly and less politically correct to help make sure I get the point across as I've explained my concerns before:

For someone that has had COVID already I don't see conclusive evidence suggesting the vaccine will do dramatically better than natural immunity. I see some studies that say it does. Others that don't. All authors suggest getting it. Of course they do taking the CYA approach.

Reinfection is rare (even your favorite source the CDC says that)

I'm not finding numbers on how many reinfected people are hospitalized and dying.