Union, yes or no?

Gomer · May 21, 2003

Yes, Spacenurse, I work in California. And yes CNA attempted to unionize my hospital about 1 1/2 years ago. CNA made promises and the hospital administration made promises. CNA had meetings; administration had meetings. We listened, asked questions and then voted... the union lost by 10% of those eligible to vote.

They may come pounding on our doors again, but I doubt it as nursing administration changed (a couple of the "crazies" got fired) and improved with the hiring of a great VP of nursing who we all love. Also, my hospital has traditionally treated all the employees very fairly, had excellent compensation and benefits, and has a CEO who listens and acts on the employee's suggestions/complaints. Also, those who were in favor of the union left shortly after its defeat (newly hired, could they possibly have been union plants???) and hopefully will not darken our door again.

SEIU has also attempted to pass out "literature" but was escorted off campus by 2 very large ER nurses (males) who told them where they could stick their literature.

charissa · May 21, 2003

I must wonder if some anti union nurses have never worked for a unionized facility. The RN's voting on unionization or not need to be careful about who they allow to rep them. Union bodies fighting over "nurses bodies and $" are obviously inapprop for nursing and do not have the RNs or patient inerests at heart. I have noted it before and will say it again, the only true approp union for nurses is usually one that they form, with one of their own as Pres, and not someone 2 cities away taking their cash assisted in making informed decisions by their state nursing associtaion counsel. BE CAREFUL NOT TO SLAM NURSING UNIONS IF YOU HAVE NEVER WORKED IN THAT SITUATION. Having worked with and without them at different times I see there are drawbacks, but given the correct set up see many more pors than cons

pickledpepperRN · May 22, 2003

Originally posted by Gomer
Yes, Spacenurse, I work in California. And yes CNA attempted to unionize my hospital about 1 1/2 years ago. CNA made promises and the hospital administration made promises. CNA had meetings; administration had meetings. We listened, asked questions and then voted... the union lost by 10% of those eligible to vote.

They may come pounding on our doors again, but I doubt it as nursing administration changed (a couple of the "crazies" got fired) and improved with the hiring of a great VP of nursing who we all love. Also, my hospital has traditionally treated all the employees very fairly, had excellent compensation and benefits, and has a CEO who listens and acts on the employee's suggestions/complaints. Also, those who were in favor of the union left shortly after its defeat (newly hired, could they possibly have been union plants???) and hopefully will not darken our door again.

SEIU has also attempted to pass out "literature" but was escorted off campus by 2 very large ER nurses (males) who told them where they could stick their literature.

Gomer:

I am glad you have a supportive administration. If patients and nurses are treated well there is no need for a union. Hospitals would do well to keep staffing levels safe, only float nurses to care for patients they know how to care for, respect everyone from chief of staff to houskeeper, and show respect for nursing work with pay and benefits equal to the education- responsibility- difficulty of the work. No union.

I worked at one such place for years. Now it is Tenet. I quit but those still there will probably leave soon too. The nuns got a 5 year promise in the bill of sale so it is not too bad yet.

With this shortage nurses can always work somewhere else.

Thank you Gomer for answering.

allnurses Guide · May 22, 2003

I've never worked for a union hospital and I still maintain that I have the right to NOT unionize. It is philosophical for me . . .or the principle of the thing. I do not believe in paying someone else to represent me when I may not agree with their philosophy/agenda and when I am perfectly capable of representing myself. Just call me a conscientious objector.

steph:)

teeituptom, BSN, RN · May 22, 2003

Hi ya'll

from deep in the heart of texas

Someone said that if youve never worked for a unionized hospitl then you you shouldnt slam unions.

I have always slammed unions, and I will continue to slam unions. When I was young and single I worked a Unionized hospital in So Cal, the union was SEIU. In fact I even became a shop steward they were called back then. This is what turned me against unions. I found myself standing up for some nurses who were facing disciplinary hearings and possible job termination. And 90% of the time as I looked into the matter these nurses needed to be terminated because of chronically calling in and no shows and laziness and some for being downright incompetent.

But as representing their and the unions interests their jobs were saved for them. Did any of them change their ways. To be fair a few did, but the vast majority didnt change their ways at all.

I came to see what the phrase I often came across to mean

" unions are a dictatorship of mediocrity"

Now Im sure unions do some good. But for me the best they can do is continuing to have strikes so I can cross the picket line and make the that big strike breaking wages, Gotta love it.

Unions at first seemd like the answer for me when I was young. However my eyes were opened, unions are only for the unions and the members are just their ammunition to guide and use at their will. To the union leaders its all just a power game encompassing greed.

doo wah ditty

OC_An Khe · May 22, 2003

Steph,

What happens when the administration refuses to talk wth you? They're under no legal oblgation to talk. Been there, had VP of Human Resources tell me exacly that. If they do talk and you reach an agreement there nothing to keep them (adminstration) from changing that agreement at ther discretion.

Freedom of choce is a good thing, but it does cut both ways.

pickledpepperRN · May 22, 2003

The CNA just had it's election. 100% of the elected officers and Board of Directors are direct care RNs. They do NOT get paid.

Quality patient care is #1.

Working conditions are #2.

The employees work for the nurses and they know it.

An employee disciplined for attendance, showing up late, and/or laziness would have the nurse representative and labor representative try to make a deal such as "The write up will be removed from the file if there are no more incidents in the next 6 months (or year).

Management is NOT discouraged from doing their job of enforcing high standards of patient care and professionalism.

The ANA, to my knowledge has 100% RNs making policy. Managers may (I think) be elected. I know educators may.

SEIU is different. I do not know their structure. They are BIG so nurses are in the minority.

-jt · May 22, 2003

ALL RNs, no matter the field they work in, can be members of the ANA, run for office, & be elected by the other RN members. The RN members make the policies of the ANA & vote on them. But the non-union, non-direct care RN members of the ANA are not part of the union branch, & cannot have anything to say about or do with the union or its policies. The union branch (the UAN - which consists of the unionized state nurses assoc within the ANA & totals approx 100,000 direct care RNs from 27 states at the moment) and those state nurses assoc' union divisions are only for RNs working in direct pt care. No managers, specialists, educators, or executives allowed.

The union branch is affiliated with the ANA but it is also a separate entity from the ANA & the non-union members. Only direct pt care RNs can be members, run for office & be elected. It has autonomy & self-governance, is made up of & controlled 100% by direct care RNs, including the board, executive council, officers, delegates, & staff nurse representatives who all serve on their own time. No one gets paid.

I dont know why some people just cant understand that an RN union run for & by RNs, as yours & mine are, is not the same thing as what they imagine the big-bad unions to be.

-jt · May 22, 2003

My experience with the union branch of my state assoc has been the same as yours has been: "The write up will be removed from the file if there are no more incidents in the next 6 months (or year). Management is NOT discouraged from doing their job of enforcing high standards of patient care and professionalism".

We try to have them give the RN a chance to improve and learn from the mistake, rather than just terminating her. If its been a progressive problem & the hospital has grounds to fire her, then I/we try to negotiate a resignation instead of termination & allow her to receive her accrued paid time. Sometimes the hospital will even agree to a suspension, instead of termination, if the RN agrees to continuing education in the matter, even if they have grounds for termination.

Many times I have had to inform an RN that she was wrong, & show her why she was wrong, but many times also the punishment is too much for the crime & what we do is work with the hospital to make the discipline more fair & to educate the RN so it doesnt happen again. Some people here dont seem to understand that it is not about "protecting" poorly functioning workers or the "bad" nurse - its about helping someone to improve. What good does it do to just fire someone & have them continue their poor functioning in the next place - possibly putting the pts there at risk?

If the issue is such that the RN is potentially harmful to a pt or needs help in her life, we work to get her the help she needs, rather than letting the hospital just cut her lose by firing her & that be the end of it. One recent case occurred where a staff RN stole a prescription pad from the hospital & wrote out her own prescription for narcs - incorrectly. She was caught by her local pharmacist & arrested. The hospital fired her that day & pressed charges. If they had their way, the nurse was going to lose her license & go to jail - & not get any help. Our union was able to negotiate with the hospital to drop the charges provided the RN entered our peer assistance program & rehab program for a year & stayed clean throughout & for a specified period of time after that. The peer assistance program gives her the opportunity to regain her license later upon extensive & ongoing review. The hospital had the right to terminate her - we did not dispute that - but at least, instead of just being fired & going to jail, she was going to get the help she needed & possibly be able to retain her livelihood. Without our union, none of that would have happened.

To hear some people talk about us "protecting bad" nurses, it sounds like theyd be happy to have just kicked this nurse out the door & to hell with her & the bed she made for herself.

Gomer · May 22, 2003

Originally posted by -jt
We try to have them give the RN a chance to improve and learn from the mistake, rather than just terminating her....What good does it do to just fire someone & have them continue their poor functioning in the next place - possibly putting the pts there at risk

If they are fired for drugs or patient endangerment, hopefully they wont be hired by any other hospital. That's what reference checks/background checks are for.

Some may feel what your union did was noble and in the spirit of caring, and perhaps it was. However I feel that it is just another example of unions holding on to the "bad apples". I have trouble defending anyone who abuses their position to maintain their (drug) habit. My opinion, she should have been fired and her license taken away.

By the way, who paid for her rehab? The union? Or, the employer?

pickledpepperRN · May 22, 2003

The California Board of Registered Nursing has an Enforcement Program to discipline nurses who are unsafe. This is up to and including removal of their license. There is a diversion program paid for by license fees whereby RNs are treated and evaluated for getting their license back.

http://www.rn.ca.gov/divprgrm/diversprgrm.htm

http://www.rn.ca.gov/enforce/enforce.htm

Nurses have the best record on maintaining sobriety whether it be alcohol or drugs. I have worked with a couple fine nurses who had completed the program. They were so glad to have a job they helped everyone. After all they had no access to narcotics (even though it was an ETOH DUI arrest initially).

To make up for needing another nurse to give pain, sedation, and sleeping medications they always offer to help pull patients up and so on.

pickledpepperRN · May 22, 2003

Originally posted by -jt [/i]

I dont know why some people just cant understand that an RN union run for & by RNs, as yours & mine are, is not the same thing as what they imagine the big-bad unions to be. [/b]

Well management and even other unions tell people. "The union will make you go on strike."

That would be so silly. If the nurses don't overwhelmingly want a strike they will cross the line.

Union means unity. Nurses need that to protect and bring back safe patient care.

I think a state nurses association is the best union. Still only as good as the commitment of the nurses.

Some facilities have very good conditions. Others have either less active mambers, open shop with few members, or management that fights unfairly. Even in the latter situation the nurses make a big difference. See, I work registry so go to as many as 3 hospitals in one week.

Oh for RNs in California. Good info from the BRN:

http://www.rn.ca.gov/policies/policies.htm#RN

http://www.rn.ca.gov/policies/pdf/npr-b-03.pdf

http://www.rn.ca.gov/index.html