Of course the popular media and thinking may disagree but...
I actually heard that from a Hospital CEO and it took me a while to realize he was right, but the complete thought is not finished.
There is no nursing shortage! There is only a shortage of nurses that are willing to put up with the crap,BS, sometimes lousy pay, and eternal vindictive oversight from lousy management.
Check out some ANA or goverment statistics about how many NON-practicing RN's there are today. Thousands! Ask yourself why they are not practicing.
Ever seen management use a nurse as a scapegoat instaed of facing problems?
Forget the pay for a minute what about scheduling? I've negotiated contracts for staff and/or travel where I've offered to work EVERY weekend if only I could get consecutive work days or offered to work complete coverage by working opposite another employee and both of us agreeing to work mandatory overtime so we could work 7/7.
Responses I've had include:
MGR:but day shift likes their schedule
ME: but we work nights
MGR: but days likes the two on two off etc,and thats the way the schedule always works
ME: but we work nights, it doesn't matter, as long as a nurse follows
MGR: of course it matters, then nights would have a different schedule than days.
ME: (in my puny brain) How do I explain this to a brick?
or lately I've heard:
You'll work the schedule we tell you when we tell you and you don't tell us what you want. Your schedule is flexible for our needs.
The places I work seem to be understaffed by their own causing and frankly, sometimes it is just the money.
The shortage is a figment of big hospital corporations and special interests to drive more people into the profession and to justify the importation of more nurses from other countries.
Yes there is a demand for nurses, which makes many nurses able to exact some accomodation from their job, some pay raises and some say in how the workplace runs. A demand for staff means nurses get treated better and have opportunity.
If there was a real shortage, employers would be looking how to encourage nurses to stay in the profession or return to it.
If there was a real shortage - some places just could not run or more places would work with you.
I like my work, and I am paid as well as I can negotiate. I just think the hype of a shortage is overblown.
Just think of the opposite - how would your employer really act if they could pick and choose and REALLY not care if they made you happy.
to justify bringing over Asian nurses, who are willing to work for 16-18 Dollars/hour..
Congress keeps talking about how to improve the job situation..how about ending H-1B Visas?
Well Jason,...
People go where they can have a life for themselves and their children, no faulting anyone for that now can we?
I'm a good Ole Yankee Doodle Dandy, born and raised south of the Mason Dixon line.
Imagine my surprise 19 years ago when I tried to immigrate to Australia for professional and economic reasons but could not. I would have taken another mans job in another country had I been given the opportunity. I was not, therefore I retrained into Nursing, a profession not as yet noticed in mass by my countrymen as it is now.
Yes Sir, I've walked that mile in another mans shoes!
WOW! Someone brave enough to speak the "dirty secret" that hospital administration would NOT want discussed. They would much rather blame their staffing on a nursing shortage instead of the "staffing grid" they have mandated. The grid that requires staff take "cost containment" or "on call" status to keep cost down is not something we are allowed to talk about without repercussions. Administration requires that nurses now act as their own secretary, CNA, and case manager on top of the hands on care provider. It is discouraging for nurses to be on the phone with a doctor and see their patients call bell go off with no one free to answer it (or vice versa), It is now mandated by administration that we literally say “what else can I do for you… I have the time” and still received a flood of emails stating if we are not clocking out on time we face dismissal. When faced with obtaining orders, wound dressings, patient teaching, and helping patients to the bathroom, our documentation takes a back seat to the immediate needs. Many times nurses must attend to documentation, printing pictures, chart checks ECT. at the end of the shift. After attending to patients needs for 12 hrs straight administration reacts to our remaining on the clock as an attempt to “milk the clock” or as a sign we have not used our time efficiently. The truth is we are trying to provide the patient teaching, reduce fall risk by promptly answering call bells, and bridging the gap for the reduction of supplemental staff. I’m sure if administration was required to work the floor or in the preparation of a JCAHO visit the supplemental staff would suddenly appear in spite of the mandated grid. I love the nursing profession but have become very discouraged.
Specializes in ICU, School Nurse, Med/Surg, Psych.
I've been looking for a new position since January. I have been an RN for 17 years, have an AAS (nursing), BSN, MSN in nursing ed and have been looking for everything from ed jobs to dialysis (have 3 years experience) and when I finally got my first offer this month it was for a mental health floor position on PM shift. I wish I could have taken it because it paid about $750 more a month than the job I have right now. Still looking...
Interesting to see this discussion has been going on since 2008. Though I wouldn't doubt if the discussion has been going on longer than that.
I have to say as a (unemployed) newer grad in the northeast region of the U.S. I can't say there is not a "nursing shortage" in the northeast. There seems be plenty job posting on monster, Craig's list, simply-hired, etc., etc. looking for "experienced nurses." But what I don't see is a "NURSING CRISIS." like some news articles seem to portray. Otherwise Hospitals, Longterm care facilities, etc. would be hiring/training new grads to work in the profession even if the economy is tight.
At this point let me just state that I do hold a B.S. in finance and believe I have somewhat of a "grasp" of what going on with our (U.S.) economy. Granted even Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke told Congress that the economic outlook remains "unusually uncertain."
And even though there is a lot others in America that feel the same way as Chairman Bernake.....I just feel that the worst is over at this point. I base this on the fact that the "official" ended of the "Great Recession." happened in June 2009 as stated by the NBER.
Granted. I will say that even the article I posted above does hold out the possibility of a "double dip" that could cause further pain to the medical industry and to the U.S. economy in general. Also let me say that hiring is always lagging in terms to how the economy is really doing. It's always one of the last thing to go up at the end of a downturn so..it might be awhile before thing get better for nurses. Another thing and this is particular for new(er) grads. That even if the economy get better after the "great recession" there maybe a long wait for you and me before there is placement available in the profession. (Granted this depends on what region of the U.S. your in.) I believe this for three reasons.
1. Is that alot of the hospitals that had endowments or received money from wealthy patrons saw those endowments basically destroyed by the economic downturn and/or by the Bernie maddoff's of the world. Of course this basically causes the hospital budget to have severe cut back on everything including hiring extremely expensive New grads. ( I will get more into why we're so expensive in my third point.)
2. Another reason why it going to take awhile for new grads to get a job is because older/experienced nurses that were looking to retire/work only part-time can't. Perhaps some nurse's nest eggs were obliterated by the economic downturn and now they have to rebuild it so that that can retire comfortably. Or perhaps the significant others of some nurses lost their job in the downturn and now they need to stay in the game in order to keep the family afloat. Of course there are other reasons but those two in my mind loom as the big reasons why experience nurse would stay in the game longer than what they wanted to.
3. The last reason why I think it going to take a while for new grad to land a job is just the shear expense of hiring and training the new nurse. At least in my region of the U.S. the base salary for a beginning staff nurse is anywhere between 55 - 60 K (granted this is a generalization). OK. This is a bit of money but I think hospital in the northeast can handle to hire someone for that amount. But then we forget all the other cost of the new nurse hire. That is the actual cost of hiring/training. Paperwork involved, HR salaries, Background check, perception by an experienced nurse, etc. etc. Now I've never work on a "living" budget before, so I couldn't give you a specific amount for those thing (maybe there someone on the board that can) but from what I've read from the typical business models you looking at probably at least another 30 K involved with all the other expenses with hiring a new nurse. So that about 90K your starting out with for the new nurse. That's alot of money. And what worst is what if that new nurse last about 6 months or a year before they say "nursing not for me." YIKES!. I guess I can see why there tentative with the new grads hires.
As for the H1B issue. I don't know how much that actually effects hiring of native nursing vs. the issue of Xenophobia. I will decline to enter into that issue at this point.
Now let me just close by saying that even though what I have posted so far has been pretty negative, I believe in my heart of hearts that in the long(er) term, the nursing profession's outlook is bright. We have just come through the worst economic downturn we have had in 80 years and we (I believe) are starting to claw are way back to "normalcy." It going to take awhile but I think we are on the slow road to recovery. Once that recovery is in full swing hiring and hours will most like pick up and hours will be gained back. Granted I could be wrong but this is what I believe at this point.
Granted let me just say that I'm not sure If I personally can wait that long before the turn-around. My license is up in may 2012 and if I can't find work by then I might give up my license. I really can't afford to go back to a refresher course to bring me up to date. But I do hope the best for all the Nurses/new grads/nursing students out there. Things I think will be looking up by the end of the decade. :)
Of course the popular media and thinking may disagree but...
I actually heard that from a Hospital CEO and it took me a while to realize he was right, but the complete thought is not finished.
There is no nursing shortage! There is only a shortage of nurses that are willing to put up with the crap,BS, sometimes lousy pay, and eternal vindictive oversight from lousy management.
Check out some ANA or goverment statistics about how many NON-practicing RN's there are today. Thousands! Ask yourself why they are not practicing.
Ever seen management use a nurse as a scapegoat instaed of facing problems?
Forget the pay for a minute what about scheduling? I've negotiated contracts for staff and/or travel where I've offered to work EVERY weekend if only I could get consecutive work days or offered to work complete coverage by working opposite another employee and both of us agreeing to work mandatory overtime so we could work 7/7.
Responses I've had include:
MGR:but day shift likes their schedule
ME: but we work nights
MGR: but days likes the two on two off etc,and thats the way the schedule always works
ME: but we work nights, it doesn't matter, as long as a nurse follows
MGR: of course it matters, then nights would have a different schedule than days.
ME: (in my puny brain) How do I explain this to a brick?
or lately I've heard:
You'll work the schedule we tell you when we tell you and you don't tell us what you want. Your schedule is flexible for our needs.
The places I work seem to be understaffed by their own causing and frankly, sometimes it is just the money.
The shortage is a figment of big hospital corporations and special interests to drive more people into the profession and to justify the importation of more nurses from other countries.
Yes there is a demand for nurses, which makes many nurses able to exact some accomodation from their job, some pay raises and some say in how the workplace runs. A demand for staff means nurses get treated better and have opportunity.
If there was a real shortage, employers would be looking how to encourage nurses to stay in the profession or return to it.
If there was a real shortage - some places just could not run or more places would work with you.
I like my work, and I am paid as well as I can negotiate. I just think the hype of a shortage is overblown.
Just think of the opposite - how would your employer really act if they could pick and choose and REALLY not care if they made you happy.
MY FWIW. Do yout think it's way off base?
Fizz 2 Nurse,
I do not believe there is a true shortage. I feel bad for those who believe there is one. I think the so called "shortage" is actually artificial. There will always be a so called need for nurses. Students' Common answer: LOOKIT ALL THOSE JOBS!!! There are many abnormal reasons why there are "all those jobs".
I've heard the statement: people are sicker nowadays. I think it's odd. Chronic ailments? "Sicker" due to age? People do not stay in the hospital very long - not like the past. We do not tend to have huge outbreaks of TB, polio etc like back then. Plus, who WANTS to stay in a hospital? YEt they keep building bigger, better hospitals. As if people want to stay/ or even CAN stay.
All I see with healthcare is a lot of corporate and falling apart. You don't even get to truly CARE for a patient. Mostly computer/paper pushing. What about the patient?
I'm curious about 2014 when the healthcare bill comes around. Will People be able to afford to go to the hospital then? Probably the nurse wages will be depressed more as they are caring for aging baby boomers who might be able to afford healthcare.
It's silly to run out and get a nursing degree. The universities are preying on this artificial need for nurses. There are plenty of US nurses there - but who wants to work in a grinder? The push for "magnet status" by so many hospitals? Nurses get to look forward to a grinder. Magnet - Looks good to public/paper but not for the nurse. Insane standard of perfection - Magnet hospital status.
Specializes in Oncology; medical specialty website.
From reading the threads on this board about nursing education and nursing in the Philippines, it sounds like you all are being misled and taken advantage of on a number of subjects. Also, have you been reading and staying informed about the new delays/barriers to coming to the US?
"Very ideal" staffing and 5 patients/max in the US is either a very bad joke :icon_roll or an outright lie.
As for "tak(ing) the challenge of being overworked and underpaid," there are plenty of US nurses who believe that importation of foreign nurses, who are (understandably) happy to get wages and working conditions/standards that are much higher than they can get in their own country, is a significant factor keeping us from being able to improve conditions for nurses here ... You note that RNs in the Phillipines earn ~$100/month; how would you (RNs in the Phillipines, that is) like it if a whole bunch of RNs came into your country from abroad, who thought that $50/month was wealth beyond anything they'd ever dreamed of in their own country, and would put up with nearly anything in order to have a nursing job that paid $50/month? What do you think would happen to the current nursing salaries and job conditions in the Phillipines? :uhoh21: I can tell you what would happen -- the salaries and working conditions would drop, and, as long as there were people willing to work for the lower salaries and worse conditions, you'd have a v. hard time improving anything.
Sure, there are nursing jobs here -- but a lot of those jobs are available because many US nurses aren't willing to be worked and treated like pack animals, and refuse to take those jobs. As long as employers can find nurses (from wherever) who are willing to put up with lousy salaries and working conditions, they have no reason to make any changes ...
Please note that I am not criticizing you at all for wanting to make a better life for yourself. But there are (at least :)) two sides to every issue.
Specializes in Oncology; medical specialty website.
Isn't the ANA or any other american nurses' organization doing anything about those problems then? I believe that American nurses are more assertive and they can do something about those problems that they are faced with.
I do not think that Filipino nurses keep quiet all the time. Several Filipino nurses walked out of their work in NY. I've a cousin working in Cali and she's good at refusing unbearable working conditions. She's an OR nurse and a traveler. I met a Filipino nurse who came for a vacation and he was telling me about better working conditions and how nurses are working indepently back there. He's in the ICU.
We're able to persevere the worst of conditions but not for a very long time. Maybe that's what makes us different.
Still, I'd like to try America and what it can offer me. I sound desperate and I am. I believe going to America is worth giving a try. If things don't turn out well then am glad to be working here in the Philippines or in some other country.
Maybe it is high time also for American nurses to live up to how foreign nurses see them - independent, assertive and almost good at anything. That's how highly we regard you.
We really do not need foreigners telling us how we should or should not comport ourselves as nurses. What we need is a moratorium on visas for foreign nurses until the native-born nurses who are unable to get jobs can find employment. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but things are desperate here, and we need to start taking care of our own before we extend employment opportunities to people abroad.
FWIW. Do yout think it's way off base?
. I guess I can see why there tentative with the new grads hires.
Flying ICU RN
460 Posts
Well Jason,...
People go where they can have a life for themselves and their children, no faulting anyone for that now can we?
I'm a good Ole Yankee Doodle Dandy, born and raised south of the Mason Dixon line.
Imagine my surprise 19 years ago when I tried to immigrate to Australia for professional and economic reasons but could not. I would have taken another mans job in another country had I been given the opportunity. I was not, therefore I retrained into Nursing, a profession not as yet noticed in mass by my countrymen as it is now.
Yes Sir, I've walked that mile in another mans shoes!