The US is Officially Nuts: Judges now telling hospitals how to treat COVID patients

[Anonymous865]

Judges are now telling hospitals how to treat covid patients.

TLDR; A man was in the ICU for COVID.  The wife asked the physicians to prescribe Ivermectin.  They refused saying it wouldn't help and could interfere with treatment that does work.  Wife went to a Dr associated with Front Line Covid-19 Critical Care Alliance who gave her a prescription for her husband.  Hospital refused to administer it.  She went to court and got a judge to force the hospital to administer it.

Quote

Butler County Common Pleas Judge Gregory Howard ordered West Chester Hospital, part of the University of Cincinnati network, to treat Jeffrey Smith, 51, with Ivermectin. The order, filed Aug. 23, compels the hospital to provide Smith with 30mg of Ivermectin daily for three weeks.

Read in entirety: Judge orders Cinci hospital to treat COVID-19 patient with Ivermectin, despite CDC warnings

[OUxPhys, BSN, RN]

This really opens a can of worms. Can courts force doctors to do procedures because the family wants it? Can the courts force doctors to prescribe medicine even if the doctor advises against it (besides IVM)? I'm ashamed that this happened in my state of Ohio but then again once outside of the urban areas this type of behavior really isn't surprising.

[macawake, MSN]

So if a patient presents at the ER with chest pain, elevated troponins and a really wonky EKG… waving around a prescription from Dr. Quack for anthracyclines, demanding the ER administer a high dose because chest pain patient is overweight and has read on the internet that this medication is highly effective for immediate weight loss.. then the staff in the ER would be forced to administer it if a judge who doesn’t know anything about physiology, pathophysiology, pharmacokinetics or pharmacodynamics or drug interactions, ordered it? That sounds dangerous. Scratch that. That IS dangerous. 

Yes. The US is nuts. 

Who assumes the liability in OP’s case if something goes wrong? The ICU physician? The Front Line doctor who wrote the prescription? The patient’s wife? The judge?!?

Why can’t this patient go and get treated by the Ivermectin doc?  Oohhh, I’m guessing he really needs to be in a hospital with an ICU where the healthcare professionals who work there actually believe in science-based medicine. Imagine that. 

(OP, I couldn’t access the article you referenced as it’s not available in my country, but what you describe sounds absolutely ? 

My ”like” of your post is because I appreciate you bringing this to our attention, but obviously not because I agree with what’s described in it).

Though it might sound like it, I don’t really have any scorn or harbor any animosity towards the patient or the wife in this story. He’s likely quite ill and they are both likely quite scared. But I do blame the people who spread the disinformation that has resulted in the absurd situation that people go to court to try to get treated with a medication that hasn’t been proven to be either safe nor efficient for this particular condition/disease.

[emtb2rn, BSN, RN, EMT-B]

So my hospital chain is 100% cpoe which requires the ordering physician to be in the system. We treat RX’s from outside docs as suggestions, nothing more. I don’t see how this (insane) ruling could work in my environment. 

[macawake, MSN]

5 minutes ago, emtb2rn said:

So my hospital chain is 100% cpoe which requires the ordering physician to be in the system. We treat RX’s from outside docs as suggestions, nothing more. I don’t see how this (insane) ruling could work in my environment. 

That was I was wondering. What would actually happen if the ICU doc simply refuses to follow the judge’s ruling? Is it actually in a judge’s power to order medications that aren’t approved as treatment for a specific disease be administered? I don’t know US law well enough to know that, it just seems odd. That’s the reason I asked the question in my previous post if a judge could also order a medication known to have potentially very serious side effects, for a condition that the med can’t or shouldn’t treat? 

[JKL33]

I fully expect this to be appealed in higher court and overturned.

This is way out of bounds and has multiple implications.

[gere7404, BSN, RN]

“Hey, this doctor at a pill mill pain clinic in Alabama says you have to give me dilaudid….”

[Guest1171160]

The FDA did not say the one from the hospital was dangerous, they said the one over the counter meant for horses is, as I read the FDA release on it. While I don't think the one in the hospital, meant for humans will help him, I can't blame her for wanting to try everything to save her husband. Any of us would do the same. 

[JKL33]

1 hour ago, macawake said:

That was I was wondering. What would actually happen if the ICU doc simply refuses to follow the judge’s ruling?

There is a decent chance they would succeed in that.

As it is, I have personally seen physicians reject court orders in other circumstances, especially orders to perform certain physical examinations. When presented with the order the physicians have simply said "This doesn't compel me to do anything. It just says it needs to happen; good luck finding someone to do it. But this order doesn't have my name, it is not compelling me to do a single thing, and I am not doing it."

They then proceed to provide the medically prudent care.

No consequences have been experienced; I suspect because the orders directed the performance of acts which were either technically illegal or at the very least significantly ethically inappropriate and against widely-accepted ethics. I would say the ordered acts are pretty much indefensible in context. It just isn't going to work to order some unnamed "somebody" to do something which could technically be faulted by their certification and licensing bodies if any of the qualified individuals chose to do it.

And, if it were the hospital that was ordered to do this, well, the hospital entity can't practice medicine. 

No individual physician is ordered to write this, no pharmacist is ordered to fill it, and no nurse is ordered to administer it. And each of those entities and the individuals therein are within their rights to refuse to perform.

[guest1163268]

The United States is officially nuts! 

I wonder if the wackos realize that they are essentially agreeing with N Korean, Brazilian, Russian, Hungarian etc philosophies re the vaccines. 

I wonder if they actually know anything about those countries? 

This is a country of big mouths and loud boorish people! 

And we have to stop reverence to such idiots! 

Recent Italian study done, can't remember the article, anyway.... about narcissists progressing more quickly into management positions because of their lack of humility, so no barriers to tooting their own horns or taking other people's credit etc. I'd like to see someone try that with me by the way! 

Anyway, it's extremely prevalent here! I have neither Twitter, Instagram or facebook accounts but I see the results from insidious Google ads in articles that I read. I don't understand the fascination with popular people? 

And this judge if he didn't know that what he was doing was controversial and would draw attention to himself and his profession, should be fired and disbarred for incompetence and stupidity. 

It also didn't happen in a vacuum! A climate exists in this country that allows such incompetence to flourish and even be rewarded! It's a reflection of all of us and our values! 

And beside the point, you women are too blame for what's going on in Texas! You need to stop being cowards and allowing stupid men to demonize you! Rambling, perhaps? But it just struck me. You are far more capable than us. You are organized and competent and not tethered to alpha male ***, so you get the job done!

So get the job done! 

[guest1163268]

On 9/1/2021 at 12:16 PM, macawake said:

So if a patient presents at the ER with chest pain, elevated troponins and a really wonky EKG… waving around a prescription from Dr. Quack for anthracyclines, demanding the ER administer a high dose because chest pain patient is overweight and has read on the internet that this medication is highly effective for immediate weight loss.. then the staff in the ER would be forced to administer it if a judge who doesn’t know anything about physiology, pathophysiology, pharmacokinetics or pharmacodynamics or drug interactions, ordered it? That sounds dangerous. Scratch that. That IS dangerous. 

Yes. The US is nuts. 

Who assumes the liability in OP’s case if something goes wrong? The ICU physician? The Front Line doctor who wrote the prescription? The patient’s wife? The judge?!?

Why can’t this patient go and get treated by the Ivermectin doc?  Oohhh, I’m guessing he really needs to be in a hospital with an ICU where the healthcare professionals who work there actually believe in science-based medicine. Imagine that. 

(OP, I couldn’t access the article you referenced as it’s not available in my country, but what you describe sounds absolutely ? 

My ”like” of your post is because I appreciate you bringing this to our attention, but obviously not because I agree with what’s described in it).

Though it might sound like it, I don’t really have any scorn or harbor any animosity towards the patient or the wife in this story. He’s likely quite ill and they are both likely quite scared. But I do blame the people who spread the disinformation that has resulted in the absurd situation that people go to court to try to get treated with a medication that hasn’t been proven to be either safe nor efficient for this particular condition/disease.

Amazing country, isn't it Macawake? 

Judges with public opinions and then we expect them to be unbiased! 

We have Supreme Court Justices with religious, political and party affiliations and we call ourselves civilized and free. 

Nuts isn't the only word that comes to mind! 

[guest1163268]

3 hours ago, macawake said:

That was I was wondering. What would actually happen if the ICU doc simply refuses to follow the judge’s ruling? Is it actually in a judge’s power to order medications that aren’t approved as treatment for a specific disease be administered? I don’t know US law well enough to know that, it just seems odd. That’s the reason I asked the question in my previous post if a judge could also order a medication known to have potentially very serious side effects, for a condition that the med can’t or shouldn’t treat? 

Very likely he would be arrested and here's the kicker. The prosecuter works for the state(conflict of interest, same as the judge) and is elected, so he will make a big deal of this for publicity reasons and will prosecute the Dr, who won't want the publicity, so he will agree to a plea bargain resulting in a conviction of sorts! 

It's cheaper to settle. There is no justice in this country! It's the absolute worst system that I know of in the developed world and because of spin and Hollywood, it's held up to be the best! 

The legal system in this country is a joke and so corrupt, you won't believe! All about the Benjamins!