The Story of Jahi Continues

Gooselady, BSN, RN · Mar 22, 2015

THat would all make sense if she were alive, but she is dead! Even NJ isn't going to pay to keep a corpse on a vent!

For all intents and purposes in the real world, she isn't a corpse. C'mon. Whatever Jahi McMath is, which I suspect there's about to be a new 'term' for here soon, she is no corpse. A living body, however dead the brain is, is not a corpse except from the point of view of a narrowly defined American Academy of Neurology Guidelines for Brain Death Determination.

I'm speaking from a much wider context, which doesn't mean I think you are WRONG to call her a corpse. Her family, friends, neighbors and most of concerned society could not stand at the foot of that child's bed and wholeheartedly call her a corpse and feel remotely humane doing so.

A corpse is a cooling dead body bound for the morgue. Jahi McMath is . . . existing in some heretofore 'unexplored' state of being. Whatever it's value or legitimacy, she is 'alive' however dead her brain is.

Five pediatric neurologists found her brain dead per the evidence-based neurological guidelines for determination of brain death. This only shows Jahi's death to be true in a circumscribed, medical fashion determined in the late 60's to be some kind of line that was necessary to draw in the sand. This line means jack, relatively speaking, and fails to really describe what Jahi McMath . . . really is.

What is she? Words to describe her are only descriptions, not 'the truth' in themselves.

Yeah who cares, right ? But just wait until the media calls her a corpse, or a medical professional calls her a corpse on national TV. There will be an uproar. What people believe matters, and the medical profession has no choice but to take that into consideration.

Red Kryptonite · Mar 22, 2015

Brain dead is dead. :banghead:

ixchel · Mar 22, 2015

Gooselady, you don't believe in brain death?

elkpark · Mar 22, 2015

What people believe matters, and the medical profession has no choice but to take that into consideration.

"People" believe that water fluoridation is a Commie plot, we never landed on the moon and all those photos are faked, and childhood vaccines cause autism. Does that mean the medical profession should also "take that into consideration" and somehow accommodate those views?

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Mar 22, 2015

What people believe matters, and the medical profession has no choice but to take that into consideration.

Normally with brain death, that is not the case. Usually when a patient is declared brain dead, the hospital is under no obligation to continue to provide life support after that legal determination is made. California law even states as much. Normally they give the family a deadline and when that time comes, support is withdrawn no matter what the family believes. The same is true in 48 other states. In this case the family not only challenged this in court, they were "lucky" enough to get a judge who did not rule against them as usually happens. This case was fairly unusual, though of course not entirely unprecedented. But no, legally medicine does not have to take a family's belief system into account before withdrawing life support from a legally dead patient.

OrganizedChaos, LVN · Mar 22, 2015

I doubt very seriously that there are any nurses seeing the dead girl. It goes against everything we train for and believe in. Not sure where smartnurse gets her information, but I'd bet my next check it is misinformation.

Then again, there are some people who will do close to anything for a paycheck. Scary, sad & true.

scaredsilly, BSN, RN · Mar 22, 2015

5 Drs, a judge and the coroner say she is dead, Gooselady! That means she is a corpse no matter what people believe. Sorry to burst any bubbles, but Jahi is a corpse.

Gooselady, BSN, RN · Mar 25, 2015

Gooselady, you don't believe in brain death?

Of course! I see poor Red Kryptonite bangin' her head against a brick wall in her previous post. Something I said in my previous-to-her's post must have sounded like I made some claim about brain death . . . what I was trying to say (and perhaps I didn't do so well) is that there IS a distinct, real, obvious and evidence-based difference between a corpse and a brain dead child/adult on life support. Her body, functioning by whatever artificial means, is definitely alive. Remove the ventilator and THEN she's a corpse.

On further reflection, especially on how irrelevant making this distinction is . . . it's about basic respect. Imagine standing over your brain dead loved one, and having a someone refer to him/her as 'the corpse'. Your heart would leap in your chest and your stomach would burn. We can manage THAT much empathy for the plight of a family (not just this one) in such a situation.

Jahi's brain is functionless and 'dead' as determined by medical standards, unable to function well enough to animate her own body. She SHOULD be a corpse, heck, she should have been buried the Christmas before last. If she were my child, that's where she would be, put to rest.

Gooselady, BSN, RN · Mar 25, 2015

Normally with brain death, that is not the case. Usually when a patient is declared brain dead, the hospital is under no obligation to continue to provide life support after that legal determination is made. California law even states as much. Normally they give the family a deadline and when that time comes, support is withdrawn no matter what the family believes. The same is true in 48 other states. In this case the family not only challenged this in court, they were "lucky" enough to get a judge who did not rule against them as usually happens. This case was fairly unusual, though of course not entirely unprecedented. But no, legally medicine does not have to take a family's belief system into account before withdrawing life support from a legally dead patient.

Sorry guys (and gals) about the confusion; I am in total agreement with the medical diagnosis of death, and what hospitals are obligated or not obligated to do in whatever state, and that Jahi McMath is brain dead and that the family's 'religious belief system' (which I sincerely doubt has a thing to do with this) does not have to be taken into account, legally speaking.

My previous post took issue solely with calling her a corpse, and THAT for reasons of basic respect to the LIVING (however artificially, or in Jahi's case, inappropriately). That if you or I were in a similar situation we'd nod understandingly when someone refers to our loved one as a corpse. NOT!!

I suppose Jahi's family doesn't 'deserve' basic human respect, after mooching and scamming and all the other stuff they've been accused of on this forum. They aren't human anymore, just THINGS to sneer at and feel morally superior to. We know SO MUCH about what's REALLY going on, what with stalking the family's Facebook and Instagram pages, that speaking of them as beneath contempt in a public venue is just an extension of our superior moral turpitude. Pfffft.

So much moral superiority has been amassed here that taking umbrage at calling Jahi's body a CORPSE must mean Gooselady doesn't 'believe in brain death'. What the heck?

ixchel · Mar 25, 2015

Of course! I see poor Red Kryptonite bangin' her head against a brick wall in her previous post. Something I said in my previous-to-her's post must have sounded like I made some claim about brain death . . . what I was trying to say (and perhaps I didn't do so well) is that there IS a distinct, real, obvious and evidence-based difference between a corpse and a brain dead child/adult on life support. Her body, functioning by whatever artificial means, is definitely alive. Remove the ventilator and THEN she's a corpse.
On further reflection, especially on how irrelevant making this distinction is . . . it's about basic respect. Imagine standing over your brain dead loved one, and having a someone refer to him/her as 'the corpse'. Your heart would leap in your chest and your stomach would burn. We can manage THAT much empathy for the plight of a family (not just this one) in such a situation.
Jahi's brain is functionless and 'dead' as determined by medical standards, unable to function well enough to animate her own body. She SHOULD be a corpse, heck, she should have been buried the Christmas before last. If she were my child, that's where she would be, put to rest.

I get it now! Thank you for clarifying, and forgive me if my question seemed abrupt or rude.

scaredsilly, BSN, RN · Mar 25, 2015

Gooselady, Thanks for clarifying your opinion. That makes sense, however I for one disagree. She is NOT alive. She is merely animated. I can respect MOST families feelings. For example if a patient is kept on life support while waiting for organ donation or for a few days while family gets there to say goodbye, then the family deserves all the respect and compassion in the world. But 15 months? And it appears to be all for money....no respect for Jahi's family. All the respect in the world for poor Jahi, but her family deserves nothing at this point. So the nurses and docs at CHO referred to her as a corpse because that is what she is. Once the life is gone from a body, they are a corpse and as unfortunate as that is...it is fact. Jahi is a corpse being animated by machines.

Gooselady, BSN, RN · Mar 26, 2015

You guys rock :) and all you have are words on a page, and I'm not always clear. Interesting how situations like this bring out those 'personal' emotions. It's good to have a place to talk them all out, where it's OK to disagree or question here and there and have it still be 'cool' :)