Texas Abortion Law

[Charlcie]

I wanted to open up dialogue about the law passed in Texas this week. It essentially made any abortion after detection of fetal heartbeat illegal. This can be as early as 6 weeks, before the pregnant person is even aware of the pregnancy. 

I am concerned about the implications this could mean for patients who are unable to access care... 

Another question I have (help me legal side of AN LOL) is this: so part of the law says that any private citizen can sue an entity involved in aiding with an illegal abortion. This includes providers, their staff, and even the ride service driver. The private citizen does not even need to know any party involved including the person terminating the pregnancy. If they win they are entitled to up to $10k in damages... but how can you claim damages when you don't even know the parties involved (and therefore would not be impacted) by the procedure being carried out?

I hope this does not go against guidelines, but regardless of where you land politically abortion is a medical procedure and falls under the realm of healthcare and I feel like it should be discussed. 

Please keep things civil, I know this is a topic that many are passionate about. 

[elkpark]

On 9/5/2021 at 6:08 PM, Ernest said:

Texas is taking a moral stand.  Babies with beating hearts whether wanted by the parents or not are still babies with beating hearts that need our love, compassion and care  we show everyday according to accepted standards of care for unborn babies in OB units everywhere across this country.

The Texas bill is not about "babies with beating hearts," nor are any of the other so-called "heartbeat bills" around the country.  There is no "beating heart" at six weeks.  What these bills are calling a "heartbeat" is is the first stirring of electrical activity in cells that will at some point in the future be a heart.  The bill and the motivation of the Texas legislators who passed it are anything but "moral."  If they are so sure they are taking the right stand, doing the right thing, why did they go to such trouble to construct this novel enforcement mechanism that avoids the state and encourages individual vigilantism in an attempt to avoid judicial review

[DavidFR, BSN, MSN, RN]

3 hours ago, elkpark said:

The Texas bill is not about "babies with beating hearts," nor are any of the other so-called "heartbeat bills" around the country.  There is no "beating heart" at six weeks.  What these bills are calling a "heartbeat" is is the first stirring of electrical activity in cells that will at some point in the future be a heart.  The bill and the motivation of the Texas legislators who passed it are anything but "moral."  If they are so sure they are taking the right stand, doing the right thing, why did they go to such trouble to construct this novel enforcement mechanism that avoids the state and encourages individual vigilantism in an attempt to avoid judicial review

Excellent post above.

I agree that the motives of the Texas legislators are sinister.

Threaten a woman's right to choices in her reproductive health and you'll go down the road that other societies are going in: witness Russia today as an example. Today it's limiting access to abortion, tomorrow domestic violence is de-criminalised as a "private marital matter", then life gets harder for single mothers or lesbian mothers who start to risk losing custody of their children  etc. etc . This  is a step backwards and the only logical progression is more steps backwards. You need to be very wary of this trend. This is about the religious right wanting to wield power and their lack of respect for other points of view is astounding.

I've always seen it like this. If you believe abortion is wrong - don't have one. Nobody is going to force one on you. But please don't force your views onto women who can justify abortion. I don't believe life begins at conception. Scientists, obstetricians, gynaecologists, midwives, nurses, ethicists can't agree on this one. So why does the church believe it has the definitive answer? You have a right to say you believe it's wrong and therefore not for you, but why should you limit the choices of women who see things differentlly? I will defend the right of any woman to not have an abortion and to have 15 kids if she pleases - her choice. And I will defend the right of any woman to have an abortion - her choice.

Texans should be very worried indeed.

   

[SunCityInsPhysical, BSN, RN]

Thanks to all of you who took the time and effort to comment. I'm grateful and have taken your thoughts, and experiences onto consideration. 

In 35+years of Trauma/OR I've been called in many times and had to participate in a VARIETY of so-called simple medical procedures (aka abortions, D&Cs). In private, catholic,  community and military facilities. 

The miscarriages of planned for and deeply wanted babies are heart breaking. I've been there myself. 

I've assisted in repairing botched abortions. Heartbreaking.

I've also seen and assisted surgeons to cover up abortions as miscarriages. Repaired hymens(preserve illusion of virginity). Documentation creative writing at its best. 

Withhold information from husband's, parents and others Hooray for HIPPA. 

YES, we all have had a wealth of different experiences and our own viewpoints. 

I'm sorry if I upset and offended anyone. 

I still stand by my point that as women WE are ultimately responsible for our bodies.  We have been prepped, coached, conditioned, deceived into believing or expecting Abortion as a Right to Healthcare. Abortion is not a right. It is a sad failure. 

The reality is  in the event of real miscarriage, Severe genetic or gestation anomalies, maternal health life or death crises, there is a legitimate need for and I fully support  medically necessary interventions. 

Let me put this another way. I think women need to take back their power. Be educated and in control of their actions and bodies and only become pregnant when they really want to. We have something boys/men want. Guard that commodity and use it wisely. 

Does that make better sense?

 

 

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

On 9/5/2021 at 6:08 PM, Ernest said:

I like your question; however, I think it is in the wrong context.  Too much of anything is harmful.  When women were not able to have access to abortions and therefore took extreme measures leading to mutilation and death, there was a defined need for intervention. 

But just like my favorite dessert - cheesecake.....too much is too much and detrimental to society.

The African American birth rate is and has been flat for years. Why?  Because abortion is being used as a birth control measure.  

Let's put it in a different perspective about environmental toxicology.  A study involving an Alabama paper mill town  on a major river recently revealed alarming rates of birth defects and miscarriages.  60% of the unborn children within 250 miles of the plant are affected with over 50% of those babies dying due to miscarriage.

That announcement would send us protesting the Alabama plant.  But we are losing 3000 babies per day due to abortion.  When do we as nurses and healthcare providers take a stand and say, enough is enough and our industry cannot be used this way any longer?  Or does anyone reading this post think over 1 Million abortions every year at the hands of healthcare providers is really okay?  I am sure most would agree that too much of anything is too much.  

Is a woman's right for healthcare decision-making really the issue when the abortion rate of young black women in several major cities outpaces the birth rate?! This would be an outrage if the babies were lost to anything other than elective abortions. I wonder what the nurses who helped during the Tuskegee syphilis experiments think now.  What were they thinking then?

Texas is taking a moral stand.  Babies with beating hearts whether wanted by the parents or not are still babies with beating hearts that need our love, compassion and care  we show everyday according to accepted standards of care for unborn babies in OB units everywhere across this country.

The birth rates of whites are even lower than blacks.  Does that mean that whites are having too many abortion?  The fetus has a 4 chambered heart by 8 weeks but it doesn't have the nerve function to coordinate those chambers until 20 weeks.  I wasn't aware that we needed standards of care for the unborn.  And NONE of this sparring addresses the OP's concerns about HOW the Texas law will work or even can work.  There's plenty of folks who would like to make $10,000 the easy way by reporting on someone who left town to get an abortion or took pills at home.  That's just for a starter.  I can see a kid (easily) reporting on their own parents to collect $10,000.  What if the "offender" were a pediatrician who was the only pediatrician for 100 miles (it's Texas, folks).  Is that someone we want to see jailed?

[Tenebrae, BSN, RN]

On 10/5/2021 at 7:28 AM, elkpark said:

The Texas bill is not about "babies with beating hearts," nor are any of the other so-called "heartbeat bills" around the country.  There is no "beating heart" at six weeks.  What these bills are calling a "heartbeat" is is the first stirring of electrical activity in cells that will at some point in the future be a heart.  The bill and the motivation of the Texas legislators who passed it are anything but "moral."  If they are so sure they are taking the right stand, doing the right thing, why did they go to such trouble to construct this novel enforcement mechanism that avoids the state and encourages individual vigilantism in an attempt to avoid judicial review

Texas, or any of the other legislators don't give a turnip about womans health, saving babies etc. 

Why? Because those same people who are outlawing abortion are also trying to outlaw contraception and birth control. Surely if a legislator really cared about reducing abortion rates they would want to improve female and male acess to birth control and contraception. 

They are happy for babies to be born to people in lower economic circumstances regardless of whether that baby actually has a safe place to live like the young lady towards the end of this of this doco who started at a maternity service. Ended up couch surfing, unable to get onto food stamps, relying of the kindness of food banks. 

documentary

one of the main drivers of the legislation was interviewed. Had no knowledge about the number of mums who would need his support, or where it would be coming from

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

On 6/30/2022 at 11:50 AM, SunCityInsPhysical said:

Thanks to all of you who took the time and effort to comment. I'm grateful and have taken your thoughts, and experiences onto consideration. 

In 35+years of Trauma/OR I've been called in many times and had to participate in a VARIETY of so-called simple medical procedures (aka abortions, D&Cs). In private, catholic,  community and military facilities. 

The miscarriages of planned for and deeply wanted babies are heart breaking. I've been there myself. 

I've assisted in repairing botched abortions. Heartbreaking.

I've also seen and assisted surgeons to cover up abortions as miscarriages. Repaired hymens(preserve illusion of virginity). Documentation creative writing at its best. 

Withhold information from husband's, parents and others Hooray for HIPPA. 

YES, we all have had a wealth of different experiences and our own viewpoints. 

I'm sorry if I upset and offended anyone. 

I still stand by my point that as women WE are ultimately responsible for our bodies.  We have been prepped, coached, conditioned, deceived into believing or expecting Abortion as a Right to Healthcare. Abortion is not a right. It is a sad failure. 

The reality is  in the event of real miscarriage, Severe genetic or gestation anomalies, maternal health life or death crises, there is a legitimate need for and I fully support  medically necessary interventions. 

Let me put this another way. I think women need to take back their power. Be educated and in control of their actions and bodies and only become pregnant when they really want to. We have something boys/men want. Guard that commodity and use it wisely. 

Does that make better sense?

 

 

I want to be 5'6" and wear a size 6.  It doesn't matter what makes sense because we can't assume tha all people  can make decisions wisely.  Texas is not interested in helping a woman abort a baby with a serious genetic defect.  What they want is to punish people for having sex - EVEN if it were strictly for procreation.  They want 10 year old to continue with a pregnancy because of some nonsensical interpretation of a religious script that never even mentions abortion.  So no, in a perfect world we would all make good decisions.  Do you think that is realistic or even human?

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

3 minutes ago, Silver_Rik said:

I personally hate the Dobbs ruling; but your analysis is incorrect. Her health diagnosis privacy is protected by federal law- HIPAA - the SCOTUS decision did nothing to change that. 

Are you kidding?  How can a Texas citizen "report" on another citizen getting an abortion without an invasion of their privacy?  In fact, this SCOTUS decision debunked Roe v Wade BECAUSE, in their lack of wisdom, they do NOT believe privacy is  a coveted principle to be defended when it comes to abortion.

[Silver_Rik, ASN, RN]

You made the assertion that the Dobbs decision eliminated medical privacy. It’s not my job to prove that SCOTUS didn’t overturn HIPAA.  You’re asking me to prove a negative. 
 

But I’ll try to answer: Is there literally a single expert (medical or legal) article out there that HIPAA privacy rights have been overturned.? The Court just said that privacy rights are not protected unless explicitly protected …ie by legislation. 

[Silver_Rik, ASN, RN]

1 hour ago, subee said:

Are you kidding?  How can a Texas citizen "report" on another citizen getting an abortion without an invasion of their privacy?  In fact, this SCOTUS decision debunked Roe v Wade BECAUSE, in their lack of wisdom, they do NOT believe privacy is  a coveted principle to be defended when it comes to abortion.

Just because TX law says a private citizen can sue another for having / performing an abortion does not mean they can violate HIPAA and just snoop in your medical records to find out who had an abortion

[toomuchbaloney]

47 minutes ago, Silver_Rik said:

Just because TX law says a private citizen can sue another for having / performing an abortion does not mean they can violate HIPAA and just snoop in your medical records to find out who had an abortion

How does that work exactly? How does a citizen know that another citizen has obtained or is seeking an abortion without violating their health information privacy? 

[Silver_Rik, ASN, RN]

24 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

How does that work exactly? How does a citizen know that another citizen has obtained or is seeking an abortion without violating their health information privacy? 

If someone subject to HIPAA accesses your medical records without your permission  to find out you had an abortion so they can sue under Texas law they don’t have immunity to liability under federal law. It’s not my job or that of the federal government to help them figure out how to access your private health information without breaking the law.

 

Also HIPAA doesn’t cover private citizens who aren’t employed by a covered entity, so there is a way someone could try to use thd new Texas law

[toomuchbaloney]

17 minutes ago, Silver_Rik said:

If someone subject to HIPAA accesses your medical records without your permission  to find out you had an abortion so they can sue under Texas law they don’t have immunity to liability under federal law. It’s not my job or that of the federal government to help them figure out how to access your private health information without breaking the law.

 

Also HIPAA doesn’t cover private citizens who aren’t employed by a covered entity, so there is a way someone could try to use thd new Texas law

In other words, the Texas law didn't consider a woman's right to health privacy to be an issue that would interfere in their vigilante law.  Law and order is merely a catch phrase for them...

1 hour ago, Silver_Rik said:

Just because TX law says a private citizen can sue another for having / performing an abortion does not mean they can violate HIPAA and just snoop in your medical records to find out who had an abortion

Are you sure?