Tasers, Pepper Spray, and Attack Dogs...Has hospital security gone TOO far?

nursemike, ASN, RN · Oct 29, 2009

Count me firmly among the fence riders on this one. Guess it depends a lot on location. It would be serious overkill at my facility, but in areas with a higher incidence of violent crime, I can imagine how it might be needed. But I think you'd want officers to be highly trained, with a lot of discipline.

I've seen a few instances at my facility where I thought one or another security officer had too much of a "law enforcement" mentality. I was an unlicensed sitter with a patient having a psychiatric crisis who bolted several times. I was grateful to have security help me bring him back, but one officer made some comments to the patient that I found inappropriate. At the time, I wasn't sure how to react, but as a nurse, I would feel bound to correct the officer. I wish I had said something at the time. Still, it was, at worst, verbal abuse, and I wouldn't even really call it that. Just untherapeutic.

Still, there have been times I have personally called security to assist with an agressive patient and asked that they send 3-4 guys. As much as I prefer to talk a patient down, there are times when overwhelming force is safer for all concerned--especially the patient himself. The last thing you want is a fair fight. No fight at all is best, but short and decisive is the best ending when physical force can't be avoided.

So...tasers, huh? Sounds extreme, but there are environments where people come in with guns or knives. Which raises the worry that an officer with a taser might feel too brave. In the particular case I'm thinking of where three guards, another male nurse, and I, put a patient in bed and tied him down, no one was at much risk. If they had sent one officer with a taser, it could have gotten ugly. And I'd hate to be the one asking an officer with a taser take on an assailant with a gun. Seems like in that instance, it would be more prudent to get the innocent people out of harm's way and let the actual police handle the gunman.

In short, I don't know. I guess it depends a lot on the situation. And the officer. Most of the ones where I work seem to understand why they are there.

eriksoln, BSN, RN · Oct 29, 2009

Ask the people in the other thread, "MD attacked by psych. pt" about that. In that one, they are saying security is too loose.

JStyles1 · Oct 30, 2009

I have worked in two different level 1 ers in large urban cities. in one of them, hospital security were sanctioned police officers and they had all rights of city police. including carrying firearms on duty. i have been in the seclusion room when a psych patient attacked an officer and i have had physically massive psych patient want to tear my head off were it not for the seclusion room door. then there is the time when a gang fight broke out in the waiting room of the er over the shooting of a patient. THEN, the gang that shot the patient tried to find him in the icu and the hospital was put on lockdown.

then at the other hospital the security were nothing more than random, out of shape people off the street put into a white button up with black pants. basically useless if something were to happen.

spend enough time in an urban er and you'll have gang fights, psych patients that will attempt to beat the crap out of you, and people just flip their lid and come after you. imo, its warranted in the right hospital.

Altra, BSN, RN · Oct 30, 2009

Actually, of the 3, pepper spray is the thing I'd least want to see used. Used indoors, it will likely contaminate the entire area in which it is used, greatly disrupting patient care & other operations.

Trained dogs are what are termed force multipliers. In other words, their very presence magnifies the subduing effect of the presence of security staff or law enforcement. I've been told that their use in hospital ERs in the Los Angeles area has significantly reduced violent events and restraint use. Perhaps someone from that area could comment. As the proud owner of a retired K-9 officer, I object to the term "attack dog" -- but I will assume that it was simply a lack of knowledge about their function.

Any hospital which feels the need to upgrade its public safety function needs to first address staffing numbers before considering other measures. Sending a lone security staff person armed with a TASER to deal with a situation is simply foolishness and a recipe for serious injury or death.

And while appropriate safety measures will certainly vary from hospital to hospital ... don't assume that the nice people in a nice hospital in a nice part of town don't act out.

dscrn · Oct 30, 2009

....never thought of it before,,,what effect would a taser have to someone with a pacemaker? Or someone with an arrythmia?

rngolfer53 · Oct 30, 2009

The hospital I work at has recently updated its security department. Newest to the line of defense is the use of Tasers. I am spilt on this issue. Tasers used on aggressive visitors (and Management, lol) I support. Not on the use of patients.
What is you opinion?

Given the rising incidence of attacks on health care people, security needs to be tightened in many places.

The tool used isn't as important as the quality of people doing the job, and the level of training they get.

BTW, I would hate to see pepper spray used in any enclosed area, as everyone there will get dosed.

classicdame, MSN, EdD · Oct 30, 2009

Since we do not screen visitors at our facility anyone can come in with a weapon and hurt others. I worked in a hospital once where the security wore firearms and billy clubs. Saw the clubs used once (after visitor beat up pregnant wife, sick 4 year old and the nurse) but never the guns.

ellakate · Oct 30, 2009

....never thought of it before,,,what effect would a taser have to someone with a pacemaker? Or someone with an arrythmia?

The person with a pacemaker would probably light up, as would anyone touching him/her.

MedSurgeMess · Oct 30, 2009

I work in a small rural town, where meth production and use is just crazy. The ER is not the only place of danger. I have seen a patient on the medsurg floor pull a concealed weapon and make threats to the nurse. Oh, and it was the mayor's son, so it was swept under the rug, and nothing was done to the patient. The nurse was made to feel like it was her fault. And our security? 1 per shift for the whole hospital which consists of 3 campuses. They are all elderly retired men who I think are sweet, but couldn't protect me in a serious situation...

trainer2070 · Nov 8, 2009

Things can happen in any ED across the country. This is a town of 24,000 people in the middle of Nebraska, not exactly a crime hot spot.

http://www.kearneyhub.com/news/local/article_45bbfa53-298c-5404-a15e-7adfb9901efd.html

As far as I'm concerned hospitals need to do 2 basic things with their security departments.

1) Hire qualified individuals that have security and people skills that are also physically fit. The people skills are extremely important for talking people down with out the desire to just go in an escelate things are turn physical right away.

2) Equip them with the necessary tools to help ensure their safety and the safety of the staff.

Personally I'm all for K-9 units. There's nothing like going into the room of a combative individual with a K-9, unless the guy is hopped up on something or is just plain stupid, a K-9 will deter 99% of them from doing anything and actually gives them a quick attitude adjustment.

Just like any other tool they have their downsides. I've seen a K-9 ignore his handler and bite and not release. It can happen anywhere, it's just a little more dramatic and probelmatic when it happens in an ED to a patient.

As far as tasers, firearms, batons and oc spray are concerned they all have benefits and drawbacks. OC shouldn't be used anywhere inside the hospital ever, but it can be a great tool if I'm in the parking lot and get in a situation. A person even with cardiac issues has a better chance of surviving a wet or dry tase then they do if I fire 3 rounds center mass from my firearm. To me batons are pointless. To some the clicking sound made when you expand a baton is similiar to when you rack a pump shotgun, it's distinctive and most people in their right mind won't do anything. However, if I deploy my baton and use it on someone in an appropriate use of force scenerio, then odds are the patient is left with broken bones or other severe injuries.

I agree 100% that it's more important to have a high quality, LEVEL HEADED, physically fit staff with lots and lots of training.

mustlovepoodles, RN · Nov 8, 2009

BTW, I would hate to see pepper spray used in any enclosed area, as everyone there will get dosed.

Isn't that the truth? I was working one night in a technology dependent PICU. One of our RTs had just bought himself a canister of pepper spray. God knows why, but he decided it would be a good idea to set it off IN THE PICU! :eek: The whole unit filled with pepper spray. The nurses were really hurting. Thank God, all the kids were on vents.

Needless to say, this idiot was severely reprimanded.