12-Step Coercion

It is my understanding that the 12 step programs encourage "higher power", according to the individual, whether this be nature, God, Mother Earth, etc. "higher power" is not necessarily God, Allah, Jesus, etc.

So, as such, not religious.

I have heard of a program in India prisons that is working "Vipassana".

Mschrisco

It is my understanding that the 12 step programs encourage "higher power", according to the individual, whether this be nature, God, Mother Earth, etc. "higher power" is not necessarily God, Allah, Jesus, etc.

So, as such, not religious.

I have heard of a program in India prisons that is working "Vipassana".

Mschrisco

The term "God" is used much more in meetings by members than the term "higher power". In AA, the afore mentioned basic text " The Big Book" uses lots and lots of religious practices/concepts like:

1) prayer

2) confession

3) faith

4) meditation

AA has it's roots in a Christian movement called the Oxford Group.

Besides all of this, how can you monitor someone's attendance at mandatory meetings when everyone's presence there is supposed to be anonymous? AA by it's very nature is 100% voluntary and was never meant to be probationary.

Peace and Love,

loerith

It is my understanding that the 12 step programs encourage "higher power", according to the individual, whether this be nature, God, Mother Earth, etc. "higher power" is not necessarily God, Allah, Jesus, etc.

So, as such, not religious.

I have heard of a program in India prisons that is working "Vipassana".

Mschrisco

I hold this understanding too!! The 12 step program is NOT a religion. (But I can easy to understand why people may get confused on this account.)

Religions involve dogmas, "scriptures", religious leaders, formal prayer, and giving very a specific definition to a god or gods; Religion involves theology. This is not true for 12 step programs. Although 12 step programs involves the notion of a "higher power", no detailed definition should be given to that "higher power". An individual 12 step group can have their higher power be the group conscious itself and should leave room for an atheist to say no formal definitive god exists. Rather, I would say that 12 step programs are "spiritual" in nature. In my mind, one can be spiritual and still proclaim that no god exists. Spirituality simply involves some kind of work or process towards inward peace through heavy self examination; it involves a deeply honest understanding of one's self in relationship to one's self and others. Spirituality MAY involve a "higher power". But that "higher power" can be anything or anyone or even any diety other than self.

Yes. 12 step programs was founded by a group of people with religous backgrounds. But it is my understanding that this group specifically helped design these programs not to be religious in nature. It was more important to them that people overcome their alcoholism, NOT pay homage to a specific diety.

The term "God" is used much more in meetings by members than the term "higher power". In AA, the afore mentioned basic text " The Big Book" uses lots and lots of religious practices/concepts like:

1) prayer

2) confession

3) faith

4) meditation

It is true that in the U.S., the term "God" can frequently be heard mentioned in meetings. Let's face it, many people in the U.S. come from Jewish or Christian backgrounds. Personally, I would have a problem with ANY individual 12-step group if it goes from spirituality to religous (as mentioned above). I would hold that individual group accountable for becoming religious like and stray away from the intended focus of the 12 step program. Usually, though, the focus is on "working the program"; taking that journey down the road of self-honesty and working to make a very specific change in one's life: to stop drinking.

For clarification's sake, anyone can "confess" or have "faith" or "meditate" or even engage in "prayer" and not conform to any specific religion. Yes, these terms can be easily applied in a religious context. But these terms can be applied OUT and away from of a religious context as well (except, for "prayer", maybe). One can easily "confess" or experience "faith" in something or "meditate" and still hold the belief that dieties do not exist. And prayer? A group of people reciting a verse together sounds like prayer. Should not hear a lot of formal prayers at 12-step meetings, though. If you do, request in a group conscious meeting that they not take place. Remember, the focus is NOT on worship or defining a diety. The focus is on stopping drinking. Period.

Think this is a close call.

Per the Orange County court ruling, the question wasn't whether AA constituted a religion. Instead, the criteria was whether the program, as instituted by the local chapter, had a substantial religious component (or words to that effect).

The above then seems to enable an argument that the program in place (in this case, the one in NC) is defective of the anti-establishment clause based on the specifics of how it's run.

Of course, a NC circuit decision would have greater weight in that jurisdiction.

"The focus is on stopping drinking. Period"

The Big Book itself says {and I am not quoting verbatim here}"The purpose of this book is so that you can find a Power greater than yourself."

Drinking/alcohol has very little to do with recovery as defined by AA. You remove the "Faith without works is dead", prayer, and "God" from the AA program and you have no AA program because you have no steps.

Personally I believe in God and thank him/her for AA. But I would also defend to the death the right of someone to not be forced into a particular belief system.

Call it spirituality, belief system, religion, cosmic awareness.....whatever, but AA is very Christian in it's roots and in it's basic text.

Love and Peace,

loerith

I do agree that it is a spirtual program, although some call it religous. Not to be confused with 'Christian'. Never heard, in 20 plus years of 12 step meetings, a word about Jesus Christ. I know some people want to use the word 'religous', a blanket term of sorts. 'Religous' does not equal 'christian' IMHO. Do I understand your thoughts on how the 12 and 12 came about? Sure, but Bill and Bob tried really hard to keep that stuff out of there so more people would give this program a chance.

Now, back to the first topic...........I have never felt that a 12 step program should be mandated for any reason. The reason it works is because you want to be there, not forced to be there.

So does the guy have a case? You bet.

I've been a member for 18 years and according to the 12 traditions "the only requirement for membership is a DESIRE TO STOP DRINKING. The rest are suggestions only, things that have helped members get sober and stay sober, they are strongly encouraged, but certainly not enforced.

Couple of things here:

Yes, it is religious and has been ruled via Federal Courts as such.

As for "optional"...what is your definition of "option"? My definition is exactly as it is.."option"..the option to maintain sobriety in whatever fashion works best for the individual. Why should the boards limit the "option" to one program and one program only? That is not an option, that is state supported religious coercion.

A professional license IS infact a "right" and this information can be found in the Constitution. So, to say that we don't have a "right" to a license, unless we go to these "optional" meetings is false.

This is the definition of religious:

Main Entry: [1]re-li-gious

Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&s

Function: adjective

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French religieus, from Latin religiosus, from religio

Date: 13th century

1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity

And, please do not misunderstand that those nurses fighting this issue are all atheists..nothing could be farther from the truth. There are Christians, Jews, etc fighting this forced religion.

This topic is of the utmost importance in this nursing forum--there are many nurses that DO lose licensure over these issues--because they cannot comply with the demands of meetings that conflict with personal, religious beliefs. These meetings are not, in any way,monitored and there is no way for any person to state unequivocally what does and does not happen in them. If a nurse can prove abstinence in another program or another method, that should be acceptable--and THAT defines "option".

I'm a friend of several friends of Bill W. My friends consistently refer to their "higher power"...for one friend, this is the power of the universe, for another it's Jesus, for a third it's his inner strength -- none of them have ever complained about the spirituality of the group...and they each have in excess of 10 years of sobriety.

I understand that there are may different meetings within a chapter...there are smoking groups, nonsmoking groups, professional groups...they meet nights, weekends, at lunch...if one meeting group doesn't work out, another one probably will. There are LOTS of them.

Anyone who's lost a license because they've been using/abusing/diverting at work should be very thankful they've been given a way to regain it. Sounds more like rationalization on the part of the person who doesn't want to have to do the work to get the license back, or who still wants to use.

I have the right when I am a patient to be given MY OWN MEDS and not have them eaten by the nurse or physician. :) A license is a privilege that you earn, and continue to earn every day by using it in the way it's supposed to be used.

i hold this understanding too!! the 12 step program is not a religion. (but i can easy to understand why people may get confused on this account.)

religions involve dogmas, "scriptures", religious leaders, formal prayer, and giving very a specific definition to a god or gods; religion involves theology. this is not true for 12 step programs.

the origianal link included hyperlinks to all sources including the following from the duke law journal:

"to determine whether aa is a religion under the establishment clause, courts cannot defer to aa's definition of itself. instead, courts must examine the nature of the organization in practice. participation in the aa system entails participation in activity that under supreme court precedent must be characterized as religious. further, an examination of aa literature reveals that its dominant theme reflects elements common to most theistic religions. thus, despite aa's assertions of secular allegiances and its disavowal of any intent to impose a particular concept of god on participants, courts should conclude that aa is a religion. and several prominent courts have done so, including the united states courts of appeals for the second and seventh circuits and the new york court of appeals. aa, monotheistic in its creed and dogmatic in its practice, shares those traits which characterize organized religion today."

http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl?47+duke+l.+j.+785

furthermore, aa meetings begin with the group recitation of the senerity prayer and end with the group recitation of the lord's prayer. if these are not "formal" prayers then what is a formal prayer?

also, no one is forcing people to attend meetings and participate in aa -- it is merely offered as an option if a person wants to retain or regain a license to practice nursing. none of us has a right to a license as an rn (or lpn, or any other occupation that requires a license) -- we are granted a license by the licensing board, which is responsible to the public for ensuring that the persons it licenses are able to practice safely.

the following is taken from the united states court of appeals for the second circuit:

"the county also argues that forcing warner to attend alcoholics anonymous did not violate the first amendment's establishment clause. we disagree. the supreme court has repeatedly made clear that "at a minimum, the constitution guarantees that government may not coerce anyone to support or participate in religion or its exercise, or otherwise act in a way which 'establishes a [state] religion or religious faith, or tends to do so.'" lee v. weisman"

http://www.unhooked.com/sep/warnerny.htm

notice that they have quoted the u.s. supreme court and notice that they use the word "forcing". just how do you define the word "force"? should we change the name of our armed forces to our armed choices just because our enemies have the "choice" to surrender?

nursing boards all over america are not only violating the establishment clause, but they are also violating the religious test clause of article vi, section 3 of the constitution:

"the senators and representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the united states and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the united states."

do you deny that a license to practice nursing is a public trust?