12-Step Coercion

tommyperkins · Jun 23, 2004

If you examine the constitution a little more closely, you will find the criminals have no rights under the constitution.

The following is the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution:

"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

Just whom do you think they are talking about here?

Quailfeather · Jun 23, 2004

I have been rescued by a life raft twice in my life. Once was in 1980 after a boating accident in which my husband and 6 year old son died. The second life raft that saved my life was the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. I am eternally greatful for living happy joyous and free today.

Serene ~ your story of abuse and loss is truly heartbreaking, your descent into the hellish nightmare of psychological pain and abusive drinking is one I know well, and your recovery is awesome! I appreciate the courage and emotional strength it took for you to share such a personal journey. I am very glad that you found the faith and support you needed to pull you back from a life of utter despair. You are a living testament to the power of love.

odatrn · Jun 23, 2004

It has become quite evident that this is a very emotional topic, for all sides.

If you are mandated to attend a 12 step program to keep your license, and you feel it violates your rights, then by all means fight that decision. If you lose your right to practice your profession during that time, so be it. That is as much of a choice as is abusing drugs. Some keep pounding on the fact that a 12 step program is religous. If that is a problem, don't go. If you can't keep your license because of your convictions, so be it. It's all about choices.

The fight is with the BON, not with 12 step programs. To abuse is a choice. You also have a choice on how to get out of the jam you get into by abusing. Get the idea I think this is all about choices? That's because it is. People have the idea that having a choice means there is a good choice and a bad choice. Or at least a fairly good one and a bad one. Sometimes there are two bad ones. Like go to a 12 step program or lose your license. Remember, no one puts us in that position but us.

This thread has veered all over the place. I will say this again: I don't want you there if you don't want to be there. This is a program for people who want to be there. Your actions put you into this situation, and only your actions can get you out of it.

Big Bab's · Jun 23, 2004

It has become quite evident that this is a very emotional topic, for all sides.
If you are mandated to attend a 12 step program to keep your license, and you feel it violates your rights, then by all means fight that decision. If you lose your right to practice your profession during that time, so be it. That is as much of a choice as is abusing drugs. Some keep pounding on the fact that a 12 step program is religous. If that is a problem, don't go. If you can't keep your license because of your convictions, so be it. It's all about choices.
The fight is with the BON, not with 12 step programs. To abuse is a choice. You also have a choice on how to get out of the jam you get into by abusing. Get the idea I think this is all about choices? That's because it is. People have the idea that having a choice means there is a good choice and a bad choice. Or at least a fairly good one and a bad one. Sometimes there are two bad ones. Like go to a 12 step program or lose your license. Remember, no one puts us in that position but us.
This thread has veered all over the place. I will say this again: I don't want you there if you don't want to be there. This is a program for people who want to be there. Your actions put you into this situation, and only your actions can get you out of it.

Oddly enough, I agree!!! ....It IS all about choices and I AM the only one that could get myself out of the situation that I was in, I'm lucky this was an easy decision for me, but its not always for others...I DO attend the meetings (and make a mental grocery list in my head the whole time to keep my brain occupied.).....I do what I have to do because for me, its an easy decision, its not for alot of people......I just wish that ALL steppers took the same view that you have, "I don't want you there if you don't want to be there."...cuz if they did, it would be alot more difficult to mandate people to the meetings, but thats a "what if" and I have no control over that!.....and you're right, this discussion HAS veered all over, but its been a good debate too, and I think both sides learn everytime we debate it and thats not a bad thing. :)

serene992 · Jun 23, 2004

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him stop drinking or start drinking if he does not want to.

Quailfeather · Jun 23, 2004

If you examine the constitution a little more closely, you will find the criminals have no rights under the constitution.
Anyone abusing their nursing license is guilty of criminal activity just the same as any other person abusing their license no matter what kind it is. You enter into an agreement with the state concerning behavior, break it and well it's criminal.

We are not talking about "criminals" here. We are discussing nurses who are participants in their state boards' alternative to discipline programs. And no, "anyone abusing their nursing license" is not "guilty of criminal activity" until they are tried and convicted in a court of law. If that is the case, they will be in prison, not in an alternative program. And the topic of this thread is not about nurses in prison. However, I do want to clarify one thing; convicted criminals that are incarcerated do indeed have rights under the Constitution. Although prisoners may not have full Constitutional rights they are protected under the 8th Amendment of the Constitution, which prohibits cruel and unusual punishment, requires that prisoners be afforded a minimum standard of living and have access to adequate medical care. Prisoners retain some other Constitutional rights, as well, including due process in their right to administrative appeals and a right of access to the parole process. The Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment has been held to equally apply to prison inmates, thus protecting them against unequal treatment on the basis of race, sex, and creed. Additionally, the Model Sentencing and Corrections Act provides that a confined person has a protected interest in freedom from discrimination on the basis of race, religion, national origin, or sex. Prisoners also have limited rights to speech and religion. The Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act (RLUIPA), passed by Congress and signed into law on September 22, 2000, specifically protects the Constitutional religious rights of prisoners:

(a) GENERAL RULE- No government shall impose a substantial burden on the religious exercise of a person residing in or confined to an institution, as defined in section 2 of the Civil Rights of Institutionalized Persons Act (42 U.S.C. 1997), even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability, unless the government demonstrates that imposition of the burden on that person--

(1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and

(2) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.

(b) SCOPE OF APPLICATION- This section applies in any case in which--

(1) the substantial burden is imposed in a program or activity that receives Federal financial assistance; or

(2) the substantial burden affects, or removal of that substantial burden would affect, commerce with foreign nations, among the several States, or with Indian tribes.

The undercurrent of intolerance and hostility towards impaired nurses in your posts suggests to me that you may have an agenda that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Why do you repeatedly equate treatment with punishment and consider nurses who suffer from addiction to be nothing more than common criminals? Has someone with an addiction hurt you in the past? I ask this not as a provocation, but as a show of true concern.

exnursie · Jun 23, 2004

I wish the anger and frustration would be addressed to the powers that mandate people to attend the 12 step programs. I have said it before, going to say it again: I don't want to be part of a meeting where there are people who are forced to be there. I cannot say it more plainly: If you don't want to be there, I don't want you there. I am not there to help someone get back their licenses, whether it be drivers, medical, or legal. I am there for me. If I can pass this message onto others, and practice these prinicples in all my affairs, all the better.
So all of the anger, and rhetoric about the religous part of the program? I understand you feel. Take it to the Boards who are putting you at the meetings. Give them all of these arguments, and figure out a compromise. But place the responsibility for what has happened where it belongs: On the Board that decided the course of action, and the chosen behavior that sent people to them in the beginning.

WhaT an excellant idea !! What a concept!!

Instead of spending time writing inflammatory and exagerated statements that misrepresent AA , why not DO something to change the current system and advocate for other choices to ne offered.

I do not know about all the other options, nor do I know how long they have been in existance. I do know that AA has been around for a long time.Is it possible that when the states put together this currrent system that AA was the automatic choice. because it was the oldest and most established while these other options were either not around or in their infancy phases, and not appropriate to consider at the time?

Until people get pro active and push for change , in typical fashion , no government body is going to be out there seeking new ways just for the heck of it. For all you who are feel you are forced to go to these meetings, why don't you try to get it changed? Maybe not while you are under their thumbs, but do any of you plan to take action after you are cleared?

In TOmmy's case, he should be out there every day, instead of spending his time degrading those on here who disagree with him.

Madelina Ballarina · Jun 23, 2004

Dang this is a hot topic!!.......I'm so sorry to see so many nurses go thru such an awful thing as addiction.....If you're clean and sober and can stay that way, why does it matter what meetings you have to go to??....JUST CURIOUS!!