let's pretend that we agree to disagree on the adn vs bsn debate and start all over again with nursing education. let's call it a "professional registered nursing degree program."
first, answer the poll question: do you believe that the rn's educational needs--both clinical and theoretical--are fully served by today's adn or bsn education programs?
then, tell us what types of courses today's nurse needs in order to be best prepared to enter the workplace.
In a way, that's what I'm doing. I have my ASN, but fully intend to go back for my BSN in a year or so. The bridge program I'm looking hardest at is one year, all nursing classes. I have been told by some that it's a "waste of time," and some of the courses may not sound too useful to me, but others sound pretty valuable, and I like the idea of having a BSN for future flexibility. I'm not very interested in taking a lot of liberal arts courses--I can learn as much of that as I want in my own time. I don't for a moment question the value of the humanities, arts and sciences, but I don't see the need for college credit in them. I purely loved the Am. Gov't course I had to take for my ASN. It was great. I can see me someday using my BSN to get into law school (I mean, I don't plan to, but it could happen). But this course is completely irrelevant to my nursing practice. We did have a 2 semester-hour course in nursing that dealt with nursing practice, delegation, etc., and that was important.
I like the idea of a built in six-month residency. I feel like I am learning as much in nine weeks of orientation as I did in two years of school. Six months of this would be awesome preparation.
You might be onto something. Cut out all the non-nursing courses and one could get a degree in 2 or three years, satisfying those who want a cheap and quick degree and those who want a more advanced degree. Don't know what you would call it, as all bachelor's degrees have some core liberal arts/variety component in them.
Going back to the hospital based education to give hands on clinical training with blocks of study in between and year long certification courses afterward, be it management courses, psychiatry, ICU etc. The good old fashioned diploma RN course was a true formula for success. Senior students in their last year could mentor and preceptor younger ones to get that experience. There should be a course which gives the student a full understanding of interdisciplinary functions and importance thereof, maybe having the chance to job shadow some of these other disciplines. I think nurses could draw more effecively on the knowledge of these other fields and would help to effectively manage the inter- professional jealousy that exists so universally. Is this addressed in depth nowadays in the programs?
I don't think current nursing courses address the inter-professioanl jealousy. I think they acknowledge that it's there but don't go into it. When I was in ADN school we were taught our ADN was a valid degree. In my BSN course they just mentioned all the types of degrees and then went into the definition of a profession.
I'm not sure I like the idea of hospital-based programs over university programs which utilize hospitals for clinicals. I liked the fact we were able to rotate through several hospitals in town. I managed to do my clinicals at four hospitals (we did rotate through the OR as do the local students here).
They need to start paying teachers better than staff nurses so we can get people off these stupid waiting lists and get them in school.
I can see why people get discouraged and just end up staying where they are at.
If my LPN school had an option where you could just keep on going after graduating LPN and get your ADN, I would have just kept going.
Instead, every ADN program I looked into had their own agenda and had some song and dance about why classes I'd already been through needed to be repeated because it didn't meet their requirements. The LPN and ADN schools where I went didn't articulate very well at all.
I felt as if I'd be in prereq and waiting list hell forever.
I'm glad I got through it and I'm glad that going RN to BSN doesn't have near the red tape as LPN to RN does.
My ideal school would offer LPN to ADN to BSN and even MSN under one roof and you just kept going continuously every semester and stop at the level where you wanted or needed to with one application and one acceptance.
Once you got accepted and were admitted you just kept going without reapplying and waiting to move on to the next level.
I think we'd have a lot more higher educated nurses if moving from one level to the next was just a little more user friendly and less red tape.
Going back to the hospital based education to give hands on clinical training with blocks of study in between and year long certification courses afterward, be it management courses, psychiatry, ICU etc. The good old fashioned diploma RN course was a true formula for success. Senior students in their last year could mentor and preceptor younger ones to get that experience. There should be a course which gives the student a full understanding of interdisciplinary functions and importance thereof, maybe having the chance to job shadow some of these other disciplines. I think nurses could draw more effecively on the knowledge of these other fields and would help to effectively manage the inter- professional jealousy that exists so universally. Is this addressed in depth nowadays in the programs?
Good ideas.
Don't senior resident physicians train and mentor junior residents? Why not nurses?
I'm not sure I like the idea of hospital-based programs over university programs which utilize hospitals for clinicals. I liked the fact we were able to rotate through several hospitals in town. I managed to do my clinicals at four hospitals (we did rotate through the OR as do the local students here).
Tweets--you probably know that I'm in a hospital-based diploma program and we do utilize lots of hospitals for our clinical rounds. The one that is associated with out school is our main one for clinicals (med surg, orthopaedics, respiratory, critical care, intensive care, rotate thru the OR & Oncology but we also work with several other hospitals, i.e. pediatrics, ob/gyn, L&D, psych. then also LTC, assisted living, community nursing, visiting nurse services, adult daycare.
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
I was unaware of any diploma programs that did NOT use hospitals as clinical sites?
I thought that was the WHOLE IDEA frankly. Most have been traditionally hospital-based. What am I missing?
I still say the diploma education was probably the best nursing preparation there ever was. Yes, times have changed. The roles of RN's have too, but I am sure a diploma program could evolve and change along with the times, with enough effort.
I disagree, but I do respect and understand your opinion.
Would you agree with the idea that nurses today are entering the workforce with an insufficient amount of clinical time? Would you say that our current programs lack enough Gen. Ed. courses? Or perhaps not enough Nursing Theory is being taught?
Are you asking in relation to a 2, 3 or 4 year program? I cannot address the nation's programs as a whole because none, in my opinion and experience, are equal. All programs must meet their state's minimum clinical experience requirements. If one feels that these requirements are insufficent, one needs to address their state BON. Most BSN programs require approximately 60 to 64 general education courses, including certain required core courses. So, no, I believe that any responsible university has all ready addressed the general education program. I would like to see programs expanded to include a ten or twelve week required summer session. Of course, this would present problems such as finding professors and clinical faculty, to name just two.
You are asking for simple answers to complex questions. Complex questions, believe it or not, that are being addressed by nurse educators, who are just as preplex and confused as I am in an attempt to provide a one size fits all answer.
I was unaware of any diploma programs that did NOT use hospitals as clinical sites?
I thought that was the WHOLE IDEA frankly. Most have been traditionally hospital-based. What am I missing?
I still say the diploma education was probably the best nursing preparation there ever was. Yes, times have changed. The roles of RN's have too, but I am sure a diploma program could evolve and change along with the times, with enough effort.
You're not missing anything Deb, but it has been suggested to move more towards that type of program as opposed to a university/community college based program. Hospital programs have gone by the wayside in favor of university degrees. Primarily this started because of the move towards nurses taking over their own education, and getting away from hospitals that were using nursing students as cheap labor. Perhaps now that things have changed it might be time to move towards hospital-based diploma type programs again, and maybe get more clinical time in.
Tweets--you probably know that I'm in a hospital-based diploma program and we do utilize lots of hospitals for our clinical rounds. The one that is associated with out school is our main one for clinicals (med surg, orthopaedics, respiratory, critical care, intensive care, rotate thru the OR & Oncology but we also work with several other hospitals, i.e. pediatrics, ob/gyn, L&D, psych. then also LTC, assisted living, community nursing, visiting nurse services, adult daycare.
My problem is with the clinical hours and experiences that I see being offered thru many schools now. I am sorry but how does 4 hours at a patients bedside twice a week, count as a a real clinical placement.
I am a graduate of an old-fashioned Diploma program, and I loved our clinical training. We were prepared for just about anything when we graduated. We actually had a rotation where we were the team leader, not for our group, but for the entire unit. Essentially functioning as the charge nurse. You do not see that any more.
My problem is with the clinical hours and experiences that I see being offered thru many schools now. I am sorry but how does 4 hours at a patients bedside twice a week, count as a a real clinical placement.
I am a graduate of an old-fashioned Diploma program, and I loved our clinical training. We were prepared for just about anything when we graduated. We actually had a rotation where we were the team leader, not for our group, but for the entire unit. Essentially functioning as the charge nurse. You do not see that any more.
I think being a charge nurse is a bit out of the scope of most students. Heck we practically have to hold a gun to nurses heads to convince them that their years of experience qualifies them to do charge with them screaming "I'm not ready".
The BSN program here rotates students through charge nurse positions, but they aren't running the unit, the person they are shadowing is. A good preceptor makes it a good experience for them.
The program I went to in NC and the programs here are more than 4 hours twice a week. The BSN program starts out one 10 hour shifts progressing to practically 40 hours a week at the end, the ADNs start out with two 8-hour shifts and do the same. But from what I'm hearing about diploma programs, their clinical experiences seems to be superior to them all.
Maybe I need to rephrase the question, because I don't think you understood what I asked. I wasn't asking how to make it easier or water down the BSN.
Let's be a little hypothetical here so I can clarify.
Scenario: there is no ADN or BSN program. Create a universal nursing program that gives nurses the ability to start working as a professional nurse--preferably without a long orientation and preceptorship on the job post-graduate--that is rich in both theory and clinical.
Our college has a 30 unit nursing certificate program. It give you the skills and knowlege you need to sit on the boards and pass the exam to become and RN. You will be an RN with out a degree, just a certificate of competion, is that what you ment? Because it already exists... :)
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Tweety, BSN, RN
36,318 Posts
You might be onto something. Cut out all the non-nursing courses and one could get a degree in 2 or three years, satisfying those who want a cheap and quick degree and those who want a more advanced degree. Don't know what you would call it, as all bachelor's degrees have some core liberal arts/variety component in them.