So disappointed with on-line program

Nursing Students NP Students

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There were a number of reasons that my only option for APRN education was an on-line program. I'm the primary wage earner in our household of five and have to be able to keep working full time during school. Proximity to a brick and mortar program was also an issue. I've taken on-line classes before and I very much believe that you get out what you put in. So, it is my intention to make myself prepared to practice competently, and I've lined up some people that I really think will be excellent preceptors to help me in that respect. However, I have to say that the quality of the education is poor at best. The "advanced" pathophysiology and pharmacology courses largely consist of multiple choice exams and a lot of meaningless busywork assignments that I find to be on par with any undergraduate course I have taken over the years. I have found my own resources for lectures and information, but I think it's a sad state that this is the level of education I'm paying for from an institution, which I researched ahead of time and found was decently rated as an on-line program. I'm in the AGACNP program, and conceivably I could be hired as an acute care hospitalist. The same position that physicians with four years of medical school, residencies and advanced training, hold in our local hospitals. When I started, that was one end goal I was considering as a career path, but now I have concerns about my own readiness for that position when I finish. And it scares me for patients. I still have my clinical courses to complete, so maybe it's just too early to say, but the academic courses I have taken so far are a joke. And I have seen posts from many classmates that are struggling, which makes me wonder about the admission process, which I found a little lacking and probably should have been my first red flag.

I'm not trying to insult all on-line programs and students, and again, I know that in this learning format I'm responsible for making sure that I will be a competent APRN. But the lack of lectures, or interactive experiences from faculty, make it feel like they're just taking my money. (For example, I handed in an 8 page paper and 8 hours later had a 100% with no feedback other than "excellent". Did the professor even read it?!) I think as a profession, we are doing a disservice to well trained APRNs by turning out potentially unprepared APRNs. I understand that everyone still has to get licensed, but if you know how to take standardized tests, I think many people can pass a multiple choice exam with less than comprehensive knowledge of any subject.

I'm not sure how to wrap this up. Looking for other people's experience, thoughts, and maybe whether any practicing APRNs (if they check this board), found that the on-the-job training after school really filled in the gaps to lead to competent practice. I think we all know that coming out of nursing school we weren't really prepared to be nurses right away, so is this the same thing and I'm just being a little paranoid? Any thoughts appreciated.

I haven't seen any evidence it doesn't do it's job. Have you?

As for the debt, it's an issue, but there are more downstream effects from that too: poor programs continue to exist, more graduate NPs can't pass, they take lower paying RN jobs and that dilutes APN practice, the poor programs continue to make money and exploit. No real problem gets fixed.

I truly can't say if it does or doesn't. I'd say you are a better judge of that. I am not an NP and have never taken the test. I was just asking so that I could make sure I understood your point.

I never considered the debt issue. Your points are interesting and valid. Personally, I thank you for your professionalism. I see Allnurses as a "professionals' website." I hate seeing people try to talk down to people on here as oppose to educating or helping someone. Again, thank you for taking the time to explain your thoughts to me.

If I had a dollar for every RN that came on this board thinking the provider role is easy and that they are "excellent self learners"

Make NPs take usmle step 1 before clinicals and pass = a solution for the didactic part lol

It's just true, ok. They "believe they will be" great providers - as if this is somehow different than saying they "know they will be" great providers. Haha, ok. *So* different.

They think they should just be able to send in a check, decide for themselves what to study and learn, and pass just one 135 question test. But they believe it so don't you dare tell them otherwise.

Not to mention they are not providers yet so they *admittedly* don't know. But they believe it - so they'll argue about it all the same. Power of positive thinking.

Did you actually read my post? I never said that "I know I'll be a great provider" did I? Please reread it. I stated that "I believe" that I would be one. And, I do not "prove it" by going to school or taking the route that you want for me. I prove it by passing the certification test and practicing safely with positive outcomes for my patients. It is solely what happens after school that "proves" I am a great provider. Period!! I get it. You think that you are right. I certainly do not have to prove anything to you. Fair enough?

Well...this at least we can agree on!!

Oh come on....we were just in agreement. Now you're just messing with me, right? First you state that the thing that matters is "did I learn what I need to learn in order to provide medical care? Plain and simple." Now, you say what I learn isn't enough? It should encompass an entrance exam, GPA's, midterms, finals, scheduled mandatory classes. I mean...I agree with having a GPA. I agree with having midterms and finals. But, what does entrance exams and scheduled classes have to do with the curriculum that I learn? One assesses my knowledge prior to starting and the other proves that I can show up at a specific time...both of which have nothing to do with how rigorous is the content. If you concede that the content taught and thus learned is the most important, as you earlier implied, then what is wrong with an online program without an entrance exam or scheduled class times as long as the content is such that it will fully prepare one to be a competent, well educated NP? I mean...there are still deadlines...even in online programs. You just have to be disciplined enough to do your work without someone else scheduling your study time. And yes, I already stated that there are poor programs out there; so, I am not referring to those.

That is not what I said. I was stating that AT SOME POINT...meaning increased clinical hours, no part time schools, no online school, increased cost, etc...then at some point...there will be a tipping point...when "many"...not "all"....not "I"...not "the majority"..."many" will decide as a personal choice to go the PA/MD/DO route. That is not to say that NP programs are not sufficient to produce competent NP's. I am proud of my nursing profession, but many are not. There are direct entry NP programs that have students that do not care one bit to be a nurse. So, you see, my statement was not saying, "you might as well just go be a PA or MD/DO" as you stated. It was me expressing my opinion of what would PROBABLY happen if you took away some of the things that attract people to NP programs...such as reduced cost and flexibility. The fact is I only have two choices...either go to an online school or no school at all; therefore, to obtain my NP, I must go to an online school. I do not have a third option of quitting work and going to a B&M school.

It seems that we both agree that the program should be rigorous and fully prepare NP's to practice competently!! It seems we disagree on mandatory class times, as if that will make me a better NP. I also do not believe an entrance exam has anything to do with how competent you will be after graduation. It is a test that tries to ensure that the school is not "wasting a seat" on a student that can't handle the curriculum. It has nothing to do with how you will practice after you become an NP!!! I think we both agree that there should be more clinical time. It also seems that your hostility creates an obstacle to you seeing every word that I type...such as "believe," "many," and "probably." If missed, these are words that completely change the meaning that I intend. We seem to agree on more things than disagree. Relax!! It will be o.k.

TL;DR.

All I'm saying is I don't think the option of online schooling should be available, unless it meets certain minimum standards to weed out poor matriculants. So while you may think those requirements are meaningless, they require effort. Effort that people attending a poor quality online program aren't putting forth. The more requirements there are, the more effort must be exerted, the better prepared the candidate NP. And the more invested in the profession as a whole.

There are quality online programs. For sure. Unfortunately, there are garbage online programs. The problem being that so many nurses, as is evident daily on this forum, just don't care about the quality of the program they attend. They want to leave the bedside, be paid more and work better hours. Very little mention is given to actually doing the job of an NP. For goodness sakes, how many of these people don't even know which track they want to pursue. How difficult is it to google.

It's just true, ok. They "believe they will be" great providers - as if this is somehow different than saying they "know they will be" great providers. Haha, ok. *So* different.

They think they should just be able to send in a check, decide for themselves what to study and learn, and pass just one 135 question test. But they believe it so don't you dare tell them otherwise.

Not to mention they are not providers yet so they *admittedly* don't know. But they believe it - so they'll argue about it all the same. Power of positive thinking.

What? Of course there is a difference between "I believe" and "I know that I will be a great provider." You seriously do not know the difference? So you think the outcome would be the same if I said "I believe that guy is the one that shot my friend" instead of "I know that is the guy that shot my friend"? Of course it would be different. Know why? Because "I believe" and "I think" are two different things!! But...you just want to be right...so they are the same thing "Haha, ok. So different."

Not one person in this thread said, "Just let me send in my check. I'll decide what to study and learn and pass just one 135 question test." I want to learn. I want a quality program. However, I know that I am a great self-learner because that is what I do. I stand by that statement. How could you even tell me otherwise? Do you know me? Again, there are different learning styles. I hate lectures. I hate taking notes. It is just not how I learn!!

Yes, I admittedly do not know about "being an NP." I am humble enough to admit that. It is the same reason that I do not say "I know that I will be a great provider." Humbleness...try it!!! Your argument is actually laughable....are you telling me that you DIDN'T think that you would be a great provider when you decided to go to NP school? Really? I bet you BELIEVED (just like I do of myself) that you could be a great provider. Now that you have obtained that goal, you have decided to talk down to those that want to become NPs, too....just because they stated what you believed prior to going for your NP. Give me a break!!!

TL;DR.

How can you reply to something that you didn't read? Maybe you would have understood someone else's point/reason.

TL;DR.

All I'm saying is I don't think the option of online schooling should be available, unless it meets certain minimum standards to weed out poor matriculants. So while you may think those requirements are meaningless, they require effort. Effort that people attending a poor quality online program aren't putting forth. The more requirements there are, the more effort must be exerted, the better prepared the candidate NP. And the more invested in the profession as a whole.

I have no problem with creating higher standards for online programs. If you would have read my reply you would know why I disagree. Again, entrance exams do not tell you one thing about how good of a provider you will be. Scheduled classes do not prove how good of a provider you will be. The ability of the individual to learn and transmit that knowledge into practice says how good of a provider you will be...and THAT can be learned in an online school.

There are quality online programs. For sure. Unfortunately, there are garbage online programs. The problem being that so many nurses, as is evident daily on this forum, just don't care about the quality of the program they attend. They want to leave the bedside, be paid more and work better hours. Very little mention is given to actually doing the job of an NP. For goodness sakes, how many of these people don't even know which track they want to pursue. How difficult is it to google.

If you know there are quality online programs out there, then let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. I am in complete agreement with you about the quality of some programs and the quality (or lack thereof) of the NP students. We do not disagree. We also seem to agree that there are quality programs, but you still want them gone. It doesn't really make sense. Why not just work to increase standards. Certainly there are quality providers that you know or are at least "out there" that could not have become NPs if it were not for online programs. Right?

Just sad. Extensive research about human psychology reveals that most people believe they are well above average in just about everything.

Specializes in Family Nurse Practitioner.
Certainly there are quality providers that you know or are at least "out there" that could not have become NPs if it were not for online programs. Right?

What I am against is the low quality of content and lack of admission standards at many online schools. I couldn't care less if there are some who wouldn't have been able to become a NP if it wasn't for low quality online programs. I know you didn't say low quality online programs but that is really what we are talking about. If standards were higher I bet most who really want it and are bright enough to meet that higher standard would find a way.

Despite these being the times of everyone is entitled to a trophy we all make life choices and we are responsible for our life choices. I don't believe an advance practice provider career track should be diluted for the purpose of inclusion.

So you think the outcome would be the same if I said "I believe that guy is the one that shot my friend" instead of "I know that is the guy that shot my friend"?

Ummm, yeah? Either way, you're accusing that guy of shooting your friend with a good amount of certainty.

I agree, Oldmahubbard. Everyone "believes" that, if they have chosen to pursue something, they are going to do well enough to succeed in it. Why would you choose to pursue it if you thought you would fail. So, yeah, I believed I would succeed. But so does every poorly qualified matriculant into XYZ university that's 100% online, with open book tests, no hands on skills and performing clinical with their bestie.

That's why "believing" means nothing. Again, there are plenty of defined psychological phenomena to explain this. But if you weren't truly tried and tested by a rigorous program you have not been thoroughly vetted as a provider. You can "believe" what you want about yourself - you are unable to adequately teach yourself medicine.

What I am against is the low quality of content and lack of admission standards at many online schools. I couldn't care less if there are some who wouldn't have been able to become a NP if it wasn't for low quality online programs. I know you didn't say low quality online programs but that is really what we are talking about. If standards were higher I bet most who really want it and are bright enough to meet that higher standard would find a way.

Despite these being the times of everyone is entitled to a trophy we all make life choices and we are responsible for our life choices. I don't believe an advance practice provider career track should be diluted for the purpose of inclusion.

How dare you. "I have a full-time job and kids, and a mortgage, etc, etc. There is NO way anyone in my situation could go to graduate school..."

Except the people that go to medical school and PA school. They have kids. They quit their jobs. They move. They do what they have to do, because they REALLY want it.

I also don't believe a medical provider education should be compromised for anyone and everyone who wants it.

I think the nursing wagon is trying to hop on the equality bus and attempting to get equal status to physicians also.

Keep hearing all this "collaboration between physicians and APRNSs" how they "compliment each other, and are taught equally but different"

Hate to say it but there is a hierarchy in medicine, with the physicians at the top (not counting admin sigh). This is not an excuse to treat each other with disrespect but one should go into nursing being OK with his hierarchy. This does not mean that physicians are end all be all and commanders of everything, but when it comes to the care of the patient, the physician is in charge. I am also for having APRN on the medical staff/board/chair/whatever (nursing input is important) but some seem to think that APRN= physician. It does not.

To extrapolate, a functioning society requires a hierarchy as does any organization. If you dont like it move to a socialist country and tell me how you feel 6 months in.

Thanks

Specializes in New Critical care NP, Critical care, Med-surg, LTC.
Just sad. Extensive research about human psychology reveals that most people believe they are well above average in just about everything.

Your post totally made me laugh, except that it IS sad. (Since it's my own thread I think I can hijack it with an off topic post) I've seen this so much more as my kids get older. In my high schooler's class 75% of the class is on the honor or high honor roll. How is it that now it's no longer acceptable for teachers to have a normal distribution of class grades where "C" is the actual average? And if everyone is a straight A student, what does that actually mean for the students that really do excel? Basically it's almost impossible to stand out for academic success when everyone is celebrated for all achievements. Seems like the lowering of academic standards is becoming prevalent at all levels of education, and in many workplaces as well.

Just sad. Extensive research about human psychology reveals that most people believe they are well above average in just about everything.

I certainly never claimed to be "well above average in just about everything." It's not even about me. It's a question as to whether online schools are sufficient to put out quality NPs or not. Ironically, Dodongo agrees there are quality online schools out there, but still wants them all banned.

As far as your comment, if directed at me, it is only sad if I am overestimating my ability to study and learn. I agree that many people think they are more capable than they are....BUT...I also know that there are many people out there that hold themselves back because they do not believe in themselves. I'm sure you believed in your abilities when you went to graduate school.

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