So disappointed with on-line program

Nursing Students NP Students

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There were a number of reasons that my only option for APRN education was an on-line program. I'm the primary wage earner in our household of five and have to be able to keep working full time during school. Proximity to a brick and mortar program was also an issue. I've taken on-line classes before and I very much believe that you get out what you put in. So, it is my intention to make myself prepared to practice competently, and I've lined up some people that I really think will be excellent preceptors to help me in that respect. However, I have to say that the quality of the education is poor at best. The "advanced" pathophysiology and pharmacology courses largely consist of multiple choice exams and a lot of meaningless busywork assignments that I find to be on par with any undergraduate course I have taken over the years. I have found my own resources for lectures and information, but I think it's a sad state that this is the level of education I'm paying for from an institution, which I researched ahead of time and found was decently rated as an on-line program. I'm in the AGACNP program, and conceivably I could be hired as an acute care hospitalist. The same position that physicians with four years of medical school, residencies and advanced training, hold in our local hospitals. When I started, that was one end goal I was considering as a career path, but now I have concerns about my own readiness for that position when I finish. And it scares me for patients. I still have my clinical courses to complete, so maybe it's just too early to say, but the academic courses I have taken so far are a joke. And I have seen posts from many classmates that are struggling, which makes me wonder about the admission process, which I found a little lacking and probably should have been my first red flag.

I'm not trying to insult all on-line programs and students, and again, I know that in this learning format I'm responsible for making sure that I will be a competent APRN. But the lack of lectures, or interactive experiences from faculty, make it feel like they're just taking my money. (For example, I handed in an 8 page paper and 8 hours later had a 100% with no feedback other than "excellent". Did the professor even read it?!) I think as a profession, we are doing a disservice to well trained APRNs by turning out potentially unprepared APRNs. I understand that everyone still has to get licensed, but if you know how to take standardized tests, I think many people can pass a multiple choice exam with less than comprehensive knowledge of any subject.

I'm not sure how to wrap this up. Looking for other people's experience, thoughts, and maybe whether any practicing APRNs (if they check this board), found that the on-the-job training after school really filled in the gaps to lead to competent practice. I think we all know that coming out of nursing school we weren't really prepared to be nurses right away, so is this the same thing and I'm just being a little paranoid? Any thoughts appreciated.

What I am against is the low quality of content and lack of admission standards at many online schools. I couldn't care less if there are some who wouldn't have been able to become a NP if it wasn't for low quality online programs. I know you didn't say low quality online programs but that is really what we are talking about. If standards were higher I bet most who really want it and are bright enough to meet that higher standard would find a way.

Despite these being the times of everyone is entitled to a trophy we all make life choices and we are responsible for our life choices. I don't believe an advance practice provider career track should be diluted for the purpose of inclusion.

I agree with you about "low quality schools." I personally would be on board with raising the standards...and having a standard across the board as far as curriculum, clinicals, etc. I do not see how entrance exams affect the quality of graduates. Yes, it would weed out some from getting into the program, but if they "are not smart enough" then they shouldn't make it through the program anyway; Right?

Again, I am all for higher standards. And no...I do not...nor am I from....a generation that believes "everyone is entitled to a trophy." I've worked hard my whole life for everything that I have. I do want to earn my degree. Never did I say that I want it "given to me." What I said, and still believe, is that an online program can be rigorous and sufficient to put out quality NPs. If anyone has evidence against that statement, I am waiting to hear it? If not, then what is there to argue about. We are in agreement. But, for someone to say..."yes...online schools can put out quality NP's, but I don't care...I want them banned" makes no sense.

Ummm, yeah? Either way, you're accusing that guy of shooting your friend with a good amount of certainty.

The difference is...one would be an "eye witness account" that would all but ensure a conviction...the other would not be sufficient to even go to court. But, you already knew that.

I agree, Oldmahubbard. Everyone "believes" that, if they have chosen to pursue something, they are going to do well enough to succeed in it. Why would you choose to pursue it if you thought you would fail. So, yeah, I believed I would succeed. But so does every poorly qualified matriculant into XYZ university that's 100% online, with open book tests, no hands on skills and performing clinical with their bestie.

So it is ok that you believed in yourself prior to being rigorously tested because you have now been rigorously tested...but those other people can't believe in themselves because they haven't been yet tested? That does not make any sense. And again, one can be rigorously tested in an online program. We both agree that low standards should be unacceptable in graduate school...online or B&M.

That's why "believing" means nothing. Again, there are plenty of defined psychological phenomena to explain this. But if you weren't truly tried and tested by a rigorous program you have not been thoroughly vetted as a provider. You can "believe" what you want about yourself - you are unable to adequately teach yourself medicine.

One still has a curriculum in online schools. A&P, Pharmacology, advanced assessment, etc. I am not talking about going down to the library and picking up "doctoring for dummies." But it's cute. You want to be right. I stated that I am all for rigorous standards for all programs including online. I disagreed with your belief that online schools should not be allowed because of your false belief that showing up to class at a specific time means "you really want it" or that it makes you a better provider. You didn't provide any proof for your belief. No statistics...no studies...no evidence. You just resort to talking down to people. Did they not teach you how to make a persuasive argument in that rigorous B&M school that you went to? You are just telling me what you believe. But hey...it's like you said...."That's why believing means nothing."

How dare you. "I have a full-time job and kids, and a mortgage, etc, etc. There is NO way anyone in my situation could go to graduate school..."

Except the people that go to medical school and PA school. They have kids. They quit their jobs. They move. They do what they have to do, because they REALLY want it.

I also don't believe a medical provider education should be compromised for anyone and everyone who wants it.

There are people that go to med school and PA school that have kids, quit their jobs, and move. But some can't. Some have family that can watch the kids. Some do not need the income. Med students will get loans to live on because they will be doctors when they graduate...I do not think an NP will get the same loans. I could be wrong. Move? Do you own a house? Not everyone can "just move." It is actually one of the drawbacks to buying a house.

I make excellent money, but I have bills. My wife cannot supplement my income. I cannot sell my house because once the economy turned I lost equity..A LOT!! If I filed bankruptcy (which I do not view as an honorable option anyway), I couldn't get loans to go to grad school. Some things are possible, some things are not. Everyone's situation is different. I also do not believe a medical provider education should be compromised for anyone and everyone who wants it. When did I say otherwise? I repeatedly stated that I am all for increased standards. I just disagree with your belief as it pertains to online schools.

I went to B and M, 20 years ago. The school was 2 hours away. Occasionally I could do 2 classes in a day, and I was able to take a couple of classes close to home.

Still, over the years, I ended up driving some 600 total hours, 35k miles on a car, just to sit in almost entirely useless classes that I could have certainly done online.

Many were boldly useless, but I was too naive to even grasp it. I believed the party line. I was Dorothy before Toto pulls back the curtain. I acted like I appreciated being there, but resented the driving. Meanwhile, I was quietly preparing to be a psych NP through extensive personal study.

I believe NP education needs a massive upgrade, but most of it could still be done online.

I am sure you are a wonderful provider and certainly showed dedication. I have a lot of respect for what you did to obtain your goal. I, too, will have to make sacrifices. I'm sure not on the level of what you did, but there will be sacrifices. The biggest for me will be time away from my wife and kids. That is no small sacrifice in my opinion. I agree with you 100%...NP education should have high standards and can be done online.

If you go the NP route you need to do work on your own to make up for the low standards. Read more and do clinical full time.

And like what was said before, dedicate more of your time to reading and studying. If you are only taking 1-2 classes you can be reading SO much more each semester. Again, MD and PA programs require an incredible amount of self teaching which entails multiple hours of reading and studying on their own outside of class time.

Look what I found while looking at the NP forum. You are saying the same thing for which you are trying to belittle me. Interesting. You said this person would need to read more on their own in order to make up for the program's low standards. You said that PA and MD programs require an incredible amount of SELF TEACHING!!!

What a joke!!!

All has some merit. My only complaint is that the Psych NP boards I took were so ridiculously easy and would not protect the public from quacks. After almost 10 years of intense preparation and work experience, the boards were just a joke. I walked out shaking my head

Dodongo agrees there are quality online schools out there, but still wants them all banned.

But, for someone to say..."yes...online schools can put out quality NP's, but I don't care...I want them banned" makes no sense.

I think I just threw myself backwards with my eye roll. Critical appraisal of the written word is just not your thing, is it? I quote (myself), "All I'm saying is I don't think the option of online schooling should be available, **UNLESS** it meets certain minimum standards to weed out poor matriculants." I would use spotlights on that little world "unless" if I were able. Just to make sure you see it this time. I went to a partially online program. It was really good. It had something called "standards" and another thing called "requirements". I'll give you time to go find your dictionary to be sure what each and every word I used means.

So it is ok that you believed in yourself prior to being rigorously tested because you have now been rigorously tested...but those other people can't believe in themselves because they haven't been yet tested? That does not make any sense. And again, one can be rigorously tested in an online program. We both agree that low standards should be unacceptable in graduate school...online or B&M.

One still has a curriculum in online schools. A&P, Pharmacology, advanced assessment, etc. I am not talking about going down to the library and picking up "doctoring for dummies." But it's cute. You want to be right. I stated that I am all for rigorous standards for all programs including online. I disagreed with your belief that online schools should not be allowed because of your false belief that showing up to class at a specific time means "you really want it" or that it makes you a better provider. You didn't provide any proof for your belief. No statistics...no studies...no evidence. You just resort to talking down to people. Did they not teach you how to make a persuasive argument in that rigorous B&M school that you went to? You are just telling me what you believe. But hey...it's like you said...."That's why believing means nothing."

What do you not understand here? It's super that they believe in themselves. Again, if no one believed in themselves, no one would actually do anything... But believing is just not enough. There is the "doing" part. I don't know how else to say this to get you to understand... A "curriculum" that consists of discussion boards and open book, untimed tests is laughable. And should be embarrassing. And again with the "online schools should not be allowed".

And you're right. You have such, amazing, arguments. You aren't being condescending at all. You aren't talking down to anyone. High road right here everyone. Role model. He believes in himself too. Motivational speaking might be in your future.

There are people that go to med school and PA school that have kids, quit their jobs, and move. But some can't. Some have family that can watch the kids. Some do not need the income. Med students will get loans to live on because they will be doctors when they graduate...I do not think an NP will get the same loans. I could be wrong. Move? Do you own a house? Not everyone can "just move." It is actually one of the drawbacks to buying a house.

I make excellent money, but I have bills. My wife cannot supplement my income. I cannot sell my house because once the economy turned I lost equity..A LOT!! If I filed bankruptcy (which I do not view as an honorable option anyway), I couldn't get loans to go to grad school. Some things are possible, some things are not. Everyone's situation is different. I also do not believe a medical provider education should be compromised for anyone and everyone who wants it. When did I say otherwise? I repeatedly stated that I am all for increased standards. I just disagree with your belief as it pertains to online schools.

Don't care.

Look what I found while looking at the NP forum. You are saying the same thing for which you are trying to belittle me. Interesting. You said this person would need to read more on their own in order to make up for the program's low standards. You said that PA and MD programs require an incredible amount of SELF TEACHING!!!

What a joke!!!

Oh wow. You totally got me. I have pie all over my face! Except, no, I give every single NP hopeful this advice. Going to NP school, regardless of where you attend - even a school you wouldn't (you know, one that you can't just send in a check and they mail you a diploma) - isn't really that grounded in science. You need to invest extra time in gross anatomy, in physiology, etc. Even with the superior educational model, PAs and MDs spend so much of their own free time STUDYING and self teaching. Whoa, strange concept, yeah? That would be a tough concept for a lot of NP students going to the crappy online schools that exist.

Jeeze. You are so thick headed. You know best, again, even though you aren't an NP. Somehow you know the problems NPs face. Somehow you are well versed on their educational process even though you haven't completed it... or precepted students... or... anything. But, you "believe" you do...

I just posted this, and then felt really sad that this is the state of NP education. I have to argue with a student that they should have to work hard to become a NP. Ugh.

There are some good points here to discuss we don't need to attack each other.

The truth is the problem isn't online/hybrid programs per se. The problem is subpar programs, and they exist as both as B&M and online/hybrid, but online programs exemplify them. They take "quick fast and easy" to the comfort of your own home on a schedule that works for you so every nurse can be an NP. Every nurse can't. And shouldn't. At least subpar B&M programs had a minimal amount of hurdle while these subpar online programs eliminate even the most basic of hurdles.

My biggest issue with online programs is the rolling admissions churning out graduates which is going to skewer wages for NPs.

Specializes in Family Nurse Practitioner.

My biggest issue with online programs is the rolling admissions churning out graduates which is going to skewer wages for NPs.

And likely outcomes also.

Specializes in Critical Care.
I think I just threw myself backwards with my eye roll. Critical appraisal of the written word is just not your thing, is it? I quote (myself), "All I'm saying is I don't think the option of online schooling should be available, **UNLESS** it meets certain minimum standards to weed out poor matriculants." I would use spotlights on that little world "unless" if I were able. Just to make sure you see it this time. I went to a partially online program. It was really good. It had something called "standards" and another thing called "requirements". I'll give you time to go find your dictionary to be sure what each and every word I used means.

What do you not understand here? It's super that they believe in themselves. Again, if no one believed in themselves, no one would actually do anything... But believing is just not enough. There is the "doing" part. I don't know how else to say this to get you to understand... A "curriculum" that consists of discussion boards and open book, untimed tests is laughable. And should be embarrassing. And again with the "online schools should not be allowed".

And you're right. You have such, amazing, arguments. You aren't being condescending at all. You aren't talking down to anyone. High road right here everyone. Role model. He believes in himself too. Motivational speaking might be in your future.

Don't care.

Oh wow. You totally got me. I have pie all over my face! Except, no, I give every single NP hopeful this advice. Going to NP school, regardless of where you attend - even a school you wouldn't (you know, one that you can't just send in a check and they mail you a diploma) - isn't really that grounded in science. You need to invest extra time in gross anatomy, in physiology, etc. Even with the superior educational model, PAs and MDs spend so much of their own free time STUDYING and self teaching. Whoa, strange concept, yeah? That would be a tough concept for a lot of NP students going to the crappy online schools that exist.

Jeeze. You are so thick headed. You know best, again, even though you aren't an NP. Somehow you know the problems NPs face. Somehow you are well versed on their educational process even though you haven't completed it... or precepted students... or... anything. But, you "believe" you do...

I just posted this, and then felt really sad that this is the state of NP education. I have to argue with a student that they should have to work hard to become a NP. Ugh.

I'm curious on who everyone is talking to. You are debating the merits of NP programs and graduates with people on Allnurses. No one on here has any juice to make any of these things you are debating about happen. But, we are talking to people like if you agree with me then everything will change. Now the debate is somewhat entertaining and there is opportunity to learn from different perspectives but we are arguing points and directing them to people like "we should have better standards and practitioner career track shouldn't be diluted for inclusion. Ok I agree with you so now what. Anything different?

The reality is the market does allow this to happen. The np education does have many programs that are fully online and I don't know if they all have mandatory on campus training like some online programs.

Then someone says we need better standards and they should move and quit their jobs if they want to be a primary care provider and work hard. Ok thats what you think is best but thats not what the market is right now.

And no amount of posts on Allnurses is going to change the market. You might educate an individual here and there to look for a different online program that has on campus clinical practice visits such as Georgetown (which has a tuition close to 80k). So that extra 40k to 60k difference will have that much of an impact on one's ability as a practitioner, maybe. But, the vast majority of the market will continue entering in same "subpar programs" cause this Allnurses discussion is like throwing a pebble in the Mississippi and thinking that will impact its course. Especially since Allnurses itself is feeding the Mississippi to stay on its current course with actual cash which the market seems to value more than small forum opinions.

Then someone will say well you think you will be a great provider; but you can't tell them anything cause they think they will be great even though they aren't an NP yet. Blah Blah Blah. Who are you trying to convince. What are you trying to change. We need to make sure every program has a great curriculum THIS, we need a better certification exam THAT. Great I agree with you, so now I'm an astute professional who sees the problems in the market. But what if I disagree with you, now I'm just some stupid loser who knows nothing. Well if I disagree with you and I'm stupid well the market must be stupid as well cause it doesn't agree with you at all. And it keeps on chugging along with its ever increasing np enrollment in excellent and poor programs.

But But if we continue on this path patients are going to be in trouble and the whole nursing profession is going to crash. There won't be anymore cream only spoiled curds. The sky is falling the sky is falling. Well maybe this will happen in the future but it hasn't happened yet by the markets viewpoint and the threat of these consequences doesn't seem to hold much weight.

Now if all of these bright and passionate professionals will come together with research, statements backed by patients, administrators, and other practitioners and deliver these messages and data without stopping to organizations and people who actually can actually make changes like elected officials, ACEN, the state boards on nursing, CCNE etc then that will be enough juice to create drastic change. But if professionals don't do this then it must not be a big enough issue to matter and the market will keep on chugging along making just incremental changes as time goes on and not the major changes people are talking about. This is a similar line of thinking that if a potential np student doesn't want to quit their job and go to the best brick and mortar program then they must not want it enough.

If nurses don't want to do the actual leg work to change np education then it just must not be worth it. And I know time is an issue its more convenient and flexible to jump on Allnurses and go back and forth about np education and feel vindicated by your position while never really changing anthing as opposed to actually putting feet on the ground and pushing this initiative forward (this is kind of similar to why many people are doing exclusive online NP programs, curiouser and curiouser.

Or we could only stay on allnurses and wait for someone else to drive that change this is my vote and judging by everyone's current actions and probable future actions this will be the groups vote as well.

Now, I really do agree with mostly everything being said but the market does not believe any of us because we aren't doing enough of the leg work to alter the course of the market, even if we are doing some stuff on the local level. However, the market will continue to pay Allnurses for our time on their website with cash from online nursing programs peddling their wares. Sorry I have a degree in economics so that portion of my being won't ever turn off. See you all in 10 years and still talking about the same exact thing. Cheers

I think I just threw myself backwards with my eye roll. Critical appraisal of the written word is just not your thing, is it? I quote (myself), "All I'm saying is I don't think the option of online schooling should be available, **UNLESS** it meets certain minimum standards to weed out poor matriculants." I would use spotlights on that little world "unless" if I were able. Just to make sure you see it this time. I went to a partially online program. It was really good. It had something called "standards" and another thing called "requirements". I'll give you time to go find your dictionary to be sure what each and every word I used means.

I stand corrected. I guess we are in agreement. I repeatedly stated that I am all for raising the standards of all online schools. I guess you could have corrected my misunderstanding from the beginning, but instead you chose to talk down to me. You should understand a "misunderstanding." It is the same as when someone states they "believe something is true" and you change it to they "know something is true." I guess you can keep the dictionary...you might need it.

What do you not understand here? It's super that they believe in themselves. Again, if no one believed in themselves, no one would actually do anything... But believing is just not enough. There is the "doing" part. I don't know how else to say this to get you to understand... A "curriculum" that consists of discussion boards and open book, untimed tests is laughable. And should be embarrassing. And again with the "online schools should not be allowed".

And you're right. You have such, amazing, arguments. You aren't being condescending at all. You aren't talking down to anyone. High road right here everyone. Role model. He believes in himself too. Motivational speaking might be in your future.

I understand that "believing is not enough." My issue is that when I stated that I believe in myself, you belittled that thought. However, you had that same thought. I never said believing is enough. You changed the argument just so you could be condescending. It goes back to the first issue. I misunderstood your view on online schools. But it was an honest mistake. You either misunderstood the point that I was making or just wanted to be condescending.

So yes, I am being condescending. I give what I get. I started off with a simple statement of my belief. You chose to belittle me. Thus, I responded. The OP stated that she felt like her program should be more challenging, and she was attacked. It doesn't make sense. As a professional, I'd think you could have expressed yourself in a more helpful way.

And yes, you didn't produce any stats, studies, or evidence to back your opinion.....and yet, proceeded to tell me how "believing is not enough."

Don't care.

I agree...you don't.

Oh wow. You totally got me. I have pie all over my face! Except, no, I give every single NP hopeful this advice. Going to NP school, regardless of where you attend - even a school you wouldn't (you know, one that you can't just send in a check and they mail you a diploma) - isn't really that grounded in science. You need to invest extra time in gross anatomy, in physiology, etc. Even with the superior educational model, PAs and MDs spend so much of their own free time STUDYING and self teaching. Whoa, strange concept, yeah? That would be a tough concept for a lot of NP students going to the crappy online schools that exist.

The reason I posted that is because...AGAIN...you belittled me for saying the EXACT SAME thing that I later see you posted yourself!! I was pointing out the hypocrisy. I assume it's the ego that made you miss my point.

Jeeze. You are so thick headed. You know best, again, even though you aren't an NP. Somehow you know the problems NPs face. Somehow you are well versed on their educational process even though you haven't completed it... or precepted students... or... anything. But, you "believe" you do...

I just posted this, and then felt really sad that this is the state of NP education. I have to argue with a student that they should have to work hard to become a NP. Ugh.

Not really "thick headed"...I just do not like condescending people with over inflated egos. That being said, I never claimed to "know the problems NP face." I never said, "I know best." I actually stated that BostonFNP would know better than me because "I am not an NP." Why are you so hostile? You will be okay. Life is actually pretty good!!! No need to be sad. You never had to argue with me that I "should have to work hard to become a NP." I believe that I should have to work hard. If you weren't so busy talking down to me and actually read my post, you could have saved your time and emotional state!! Look on the bright side....I now understand your view on online schools and agree with you 100%...and, hopefully, you now know that I do not want to be "just given a degree." I want to be challenged and work hard!!

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