Should BSNs be paid more?

fergus51 · Aug 7, 2005

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that degrees do equal respect from many people in the public. I worked in BC during a very bitter contract dispute between nurses and the health authority and you wouldn't believe the number of letters to the editor criticizing nurses for asking for so much money "when they don't even need to have a degree". It doesn't mean it's right, but that perception is definitely out there.

sayitgirl · Aug 7, 2005

Of COURSE it takes more than one nurse to prove a point, she is just one example.
I can't believe you can make a blanket statement like "Yes, education does make you a good nurse". How can that be? There are plenty of LVNs or ADNs who I think are the best nurses I've ever met.
I have a BA in Psych, ADN and am 10 classes away from my BSN now. I plan on going on for my master's as well. I don't think this education makes me a better nurse, I've found that the best experience as far as nursing is learned on the job.
Melissa

If you do not think that more tools will help you to be a better nurse, something has not happened yet in your life.... maybe as you increase your work experience you will see the reason for the thought...

ali_gator · Aug 7, 2005

Rstewart, I agree...your point is exacly what nusring needs, however spec is right..to develop something that can effectively measure those things is next to impossible. However with the right observation, research, application I think it could be possible. But so many things play into it, I see so often how an excellant nurse is critized because he/she doesn't communicate as effectively with co-workers, however her nursing is exceptional.
Now with regard to BSN as the entery level to nursing...I wholeheartedly disagree and find it demeaning to classify as semi-professionals. Being a professional is not based upon your education, it is based upon your actions and how well you perform a job and to what level your care is at. I consider myself a professional, so do my superivisors...I am an LPN.
My personal opinion on nursing is this..it should be a graduation process. Everyone who wants to be a nurse, spends xamt. of years as a CNA, then as a LPN, then as an ADN, then as a BSN. Then and truelly then will nursing be able to reach it's fullest of capabilities. The understanding, the commitment, the care...would take away from all of the bad things of nursing. Such as demeaning statements as semi-professionals.
Until you work, hence walk in the shoes of a CNA or LPN or ADN or BSN, you should never classify one level of nursing as semi-professionals. I think because of being a CNA and now an LPN, soon to be ADN...then BSN...I will be a much more well rounded nurse and more understanding of my peers roles and responsibilities.
Just a thought, for the ones that want entry level nursing...do total patient care then...tell me you don't appreciate or like those other levels of nursing. Such as, assessments, treatments, medications, ADL's, therapies...even little things such as VS. Because that is what will happen...instead of facilities, utilizing RN's at whatever level to the fullest of his/her capabilities, his or her time will be spent on those aspects of care that lower level nurses can handle effeciently.
I will continuously fight against entry level being BSN. Now I do believe that RN's with MSN, should be credentialed...but not till that level.
So I ask you, don't classify me or others as semi-professionals...are we semi-nurses, seriously...you don't know till you work with me or walk in my shoes. I do have to say I am very offended by that.
I am just curious...for the nurses who want entry level to be BSN...were you ever a CNA, LPN or RN, ADN????
Thanks for listening,
Annette

I would like to respectfully disagree with one of your points here.

I believe that a mandatory CNA to LVN to RN to BSN would take far too long. I'm going straight for a B.S.N., and I do not believe I will be inferior to nurses who took these steps. Contrary to popular belief, most B.S.N. programs include sufficient clinical time. I will have three years of clinicals under my belt by the time I finish, which should put me off to an excellent start. I also plan to intern, as Los Angeles offers some excellent internship programs for nurses. Actually, I think internships and residencies would go a long way in solving some of these problems. Physicians have them, why don't nurses?

Also, most people associate the term "professional" with a college degree. I suspect that the "semi-professional" label has to do with the fact that nurses have less formal education than most professionals.

One of the primary reasons for the "B.S.N. as entry into practice" fight is to make nursing a better profession to work in. Hospitals would no longer be able to use the "lack of education" card as an excuse to treat nurses like garbage. Education empowers people, and unfortunately, lack of education marginalizes them. This doesn't make it right, however, it's true. A B.S.N. as entry would serve the interests of the profession.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Aug 7, 2005

The public will never fully respect us, until they stop publising the mistakes of nurses and start publishing the greatness of nurses. A BSN won't make that happen. Honestly, just because a nurse has BSN behind her name...doesn't mean I respect her as a fellow nurse or as a patient. Give me a reason to respect you and then I shall. I believe the majority of pt's feel that way. I have been a patient a few times in my life, I have seen all different levels, to be nothing less than frank with you from my personal experience, I would much rather have an experienced ADN than BSN at any level. I am sorry for who that may offend, but that is my personal experience as a patient. As a nurse/co-worker I have seen good and bad on all levels of nursing. But I do find many more ADN's or nurses that have traveled up the chain to be more personal in daily duties.
At my current position I am the only LPN, all the other RN's are at least BSN due to military requirements, but they show respect to me cause I have earned it, not one of them have addressed me at less than a nurse. But I will tell you this, a couple of them I worry about with in regards to patients, but that is anywhere and everywhere you work.
I think being a good nurse/professional isn't something school can give you, it must come from the inside and must be learned/experienced. Based on the last recent points, I almost feel as if some BSN is dividing us nurses and pushing our values aside. That hurts our nurse ability reputation in it's self.
We must unite and stand together, but first we must accept every level of nursing. Respect will come when nurses find happiness in his/her career...patients can see that...be happy...don't divide us more.
NO MINIMAL REQUIREMENT OF BSN, ALL LEVELS OF NURSING WELCOMED.
Annette

As a patient, I'm not sure degree is going to matter to me. However, I'm not going to generalize as say I'd rather have an experienced ADN than a BSN of any level. For every rotten BSN nurse, I'll show you a rotten ADN or LPN. I would never think to ask anyway...."excuse me, are you a BSN or an ADN?".

The professionalism that those who advocate BSN for is not the type of profressionalism you're talking in your post. They are talking about the university accepted definition of a profressional, and not profressional behavior. A garbage man can be profressional in behavior and actions but isn't considered a member of a "profession".

But I agree, making BSN the entry level isn't going to get the public to automatically respect us.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Aug 7, 2005

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that degrees do equal respect from many people in the public. I worked in BC during a very bitter contract dispute between nurses and the health authority and you wouldn't believe the number of letters to the editor criticizing nurses for asking for so much money "when they don't even need to have a degree". It doesn't mean it's right, but that perception is definitely out there.

Interesting. That must have infuriated the nurses.

Daytonite, BSN, RN · Aug 7, 2005

I know ADNs and BSNs both sit for the same NCLEX exam, both have approximately four years of education, and at best have negligible differences (over time) in their nursing skills. BSNs take courses than broaden their overall knowledge; however, ADNs have more clinical experience prior to entering the workforce. Should there be a differential for BSNs, or should the reward for obtaining a BSN lie in the ability to advance one's career?
I'm not trying to start an ADN vs BSN bashing, I'm just curious to see what you all think.

I think I'm going to get a rubber stamp because I say this so often. People, in general, get a BSN with a career in administration in mind. I said, in general. I got my BSN because I wanted to get my bachelor's degree and because I was burning out in nursing and needed to get fixed up. I think a lot of nurses misunderstand that a BSN is just another nursing degree. It is a bachelor's degree granted to you by an institution because you met the requirements for it. There are a lot of other classes that have to be taken as well as the nursing. The nursing is only the subject you specialized in. BSN education adds depth to what you already have learned in a basic nursing program. You don't really need a BSN to be a nurse. However, for some nursing positions you must have one. I worked at a hospital that only hired BSNs. That, however, was their perogative. Not all places of employment will recognize a BSN and pay more money--some will.

If you are thinking about getting a BSN, do it first because you want the degree because you are going to be stuck with it for the rest of your life. You never know when it will be a burden to you. (I'm being sarcastic. :chuckle )

wms · Aug 7, 2005

I just left a parttime LPN program and have started a full-time BSN program. The reasons for this vary, most importantly is that I want to be a NICU nurse and you have to be a BSN in my area to be hired.

The reason that I felt that I had to reply to this post is the arguement over "broadness" of education between the LPN ADN and BSN programs. In the LPN program we had 1 semester of geriatrics, 3 sems. of med/surg, observed one surgery, and then 1 sem of peds/obv. Does this seem like enough experience to you? Not to me. In our BSN program we will have 1 sem geriatrics, 1 sem home health care, 1 semester acute care, 1 sem peds, 1 sem. OB, and two semesters where we can pick the areas that we would like to do, such as ER, etc. This amount of clinical experience speaks for itself to me. When I finish this program I will be 60.000.00 in debt. I feel that the time, effort, and commitment I have undertaken to reach my goal Should Be Compensated. A professor makes more than a teacher, A lawyer makes more than a law clerk, A doctor makes more than a nurse.............. Education is the difference.

Sorry if I offended anyone, I believe that a person's commitment, morals, caring and ability make them a good nurse or a bad nurse, not their education, but you have to give credit where credit is due and nurses with higher credentials, have higher credentials because they have worked for them.

grannynurse FNP student · Aug 7, 2005

Rstewart, I agree...your point is exacly what nusring needs, however spec is right..to develop something that can effectively measure those things is next to impossible. However with the right observation, research, application I think it could be possible. But so many things play into it, I see so often how an excellant nurse is critized because he/she doesn't communicate as effectively with co-workers, however her nursing is exceptional.
Now with regard to BSN as the entery level to nursing...I wholeheartedly disagree and find it demeaning to classify as semi-professionals. Being a professional is not based upon your education, it is based upon your actions and how well you perform a job and to what level your care is at. I consider myself a professional, so do my superivisors...I am an LPN.
My personal opinion on nursing is this..it should be a graduation process. Everyone who wants to be a nurse, spends xamt. of years as a CNA, then as a LPN, then as an ADN, then as a BSN. Then and truelly then will nursing be able to reach it's fullest of capabilities. The understanding, the commitment, the care...would take away from all of the bad things of nursing. Such as demeaning statements as semi-professionals.
Until you work, hence walk in the shoes of a CNA or LPN or ADN or BSN, you should never classify one level of nursing as semi-professionals. I think because of being a CNA and now an LPN, soon to be ADN...then BSN...I will be a much more well rounded nurse and more understanding of my peers roles and responsibilities.
Just a thought, for the ones that want entry level nursing...do total patient care then...tell me you don't appreciate or like those other levels of nursing. Such as, assessments, treatments, medications, ADL's, therapies...even little things such as VS. Because that is what will happen...instead of facilities, utilizing RN's at whatever level to the fullest of his/her capabilities, his or her time will be spent on those aspects of care that lower level nurses can handle effeciently.
I will continuously fight against entry level being BSN. Now I do believe that RN's with MSN, should be credentialed...but not till that level.
So I ask you, don't classify me or others as semi-professionals...are we semi-nurses, seriously...you don't know till you work with me or walk in my shoes. I do have to say I am very offended by that.
I am just curious...for the nurses who want entry level to be BSN...were you ever a CNA, LPN or RN, ADN????
Thanks for listening,
Annette

In response to your last question, yes I worked for three years as an LPN, while spending tow, getting my AD and then going on for my BSN. And I worked as a CNA, while attending a diploma program, for a short period of time.

Grannynurse :balloons:

underwatergirl · Aug 7, 2005

Hospitals treat nurses poorly, because nurses tolerate it. Also because there isn't organizations that stand up and fight for us. We have the BON, they don't report positive aspects of nursing they only report what a such and such nurse did badly. So many nurses are just willing to tolerate that form of treatment because of that we have the lack of respect, recognition in our jobs. We are civil servants to our public however we are not repected as fire fighters (no bachloers here), police officers (again no bachloers)...those men and women recieve respect because the community is constantly being informed of good behaviors or good actions taken by them...but not nurses...the BON hurts our reputation more than anything. So again respect isn't given by a degree, perhaps that is part of it, but mainly it is societies view on a particular profession.

Regarding clinical experience in school, of course you didn't experience more acute care clinicals with the practical nurse program. We are rarely used in it and if we are, it is generally at a lesser role than what we are capable of doing...when I worked in surgery all of my training was on the job, barely anything was brought from my education.

As for 3 years of clinicals, you still will need that year of learning. Internship would be perhaps helpful for nursing however, you still are not feeling the weight of responsibilities on your chest...until you are fully working. No school and no internshpi can give you that. You will feel differently when you begin actually working and then I think you will understand what I am talking about...that first year after nursing school is a wake up call.

That being said that is why I advocate for the graduation program...I feel that my experience as an LPN is making my further education much better and my role as a nurse in my patient's life.

If this world was to go to entry level BSN, the respect from the public and the organizations would not change very much if at all...I say this because we still have the BON only reporting the wrong doing's of nurses...never anything positive to say about what we do. Patients on a whole don't respect healthcare the way they should. PAtients don't take on their own health responibly, they dont follow instructions etc. But yet we nurses advocate for them, and try everything to help them feel better.

The roles of nurses has greatly changed, more and more things from the physicians are being put on the nurses role, this will not stop...I don't think it should, that is another reason I don't advocate for BSN entery level, because as the doctors lay more things on the nurses you need the higher qualified nurses to handle those things...your MSN's, your BSN's, your ADN...so keep the lower levels of nursing to handle the things they can to free up the hands and the time of the higher level.

My honest opinion is this...nurses want more respect, however we don't unite to gain our respect by making the public aware of our vital roles in healthcare. We want more respect from MD's, well we sure stopped giving them the respect they deserve, what comes around goes around. WE are not on the level as a MD, we have far less education and far less schooling and far less pay. A MD will respect you when you first show him/her the respect and then you show your capabilities as a strong nurse. I have never worked for an MD I don't recieve respect from, in fact most of them we hang out after work, even now when I don't work for them anymore. In case you forgot, I am just an LPN working on the ADN. I will tell you, the stories I hear from them, from different levels of nursing scares me beyond anything.

Now in regards to my posting about as a patient BSN vs ADN, most of the time I have seen the title posted on his or her name tag, yes as a nurse I like to converse with my fellow nurses even as a patient in such conversing the topic of degree comes up. Let me tell you how in depth my view regarding perfering an ADN vs a BSN. My father was paralized when I was 4...our family spent frequent times in hospitals(in about 12 years my father had 29 surgeries...major at least 2 weeks in the hospital) and doctors clinics due to all the complications my father went through in his life. So I have seen nursing since I was 4 yrs old, wanted to be one since about that time too...IN addition to that, I have 2 emergency major surgeries...due to complications of the surgery...major procedures done to me...for a week straight I had to report to the same ER that put me into surgery, mind you from the surgery that mess me up and have invasive procedures done for 7 days, I mean being full awake and having to be cut open, then sewed up. Sure the pain meds helped so I didn't scream. Now going through all of that...I got to see, you know what NOT A SINGLE BSN nurse as my nurse ever was supportive of me or caring, meaning ok telling the doctor she needs a break, or holding my hand or any form of comfort what so ever. You know I saw the same thing with my dad in the hospital...that is why I choose to work my way up in nursing. Because I didn't want to be become bitter and hurtful like some of the BSN's. But everytime I saw an ADN, he/she was that way...supportive of me, caring, an advocate...everything in a nurse I desire and strive to put forward everyday. I saw the same with the LPN's who were with me or my father...they cared more about the emotional wellbeing of the patient. Again I am sorry for whatever BSN reads this, I pray you are not like this...the next time your patient is hurting, scared, needing a break from a procedure, hold his or her hand an be the advocate. I can only pray as I grow older that I can see this coming forth in BSN's. Because that is a big part of what makes you a good nurse...it also builds patient trust with you, which in return builds high levels of respect. A good nurse to me is not one who knows everything in the world or who as such and such degree...but it is one who is happy taking care of me, shows a real interest in my health as well as my emotional wellbeing. Advocates for me to the MD's. Then if he/she doesn't understand what is going on with me, he/she researches it and ask questions...he/she doesn't need to know everything, heshe just needs to know how to find it. So again I tell you it is not degree that ears your your respect...it is how you are with your patients. My patients I see on a routinely baises has a high level of respect for me, they all know I am a LPN, but they also don't go to my RN counterparts...only to me, cause they know I am there for them in everyway...I will advocate for them...if I dont' know the answer I look it up for them. But I have earned my respect...no degree gave that to me.

Again I am sorry to who I offend, I do believe there are good BSN's our there, I hope to encounter them as a patient someday. I hope this also helps people understand where respect from a patient comes from.

Annette

SmilingBluEyes · Aug 7, 2005

I am just curious...for the nurses who want entry level to be BSN...were you ever a CNA, LPN or RN, ADN????
Thanks for listening,
Annette

I am an ADN now and Have come to believe Baccalaureate education of some sort, coupled with an ADN, if not just having a BSN---- should be the minimum education for RN-nursing. I have come to believe we do need a better-educated professional RN force for the 21st century.

SmilingBluEyes · Aug 7, 2005

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that degrees do equal respect from many people in the public. I worked in BC during a very bitter contract dispute between nurses and the health authority and you wouldn't believe the number of letters to the editor criticizing nurses for asking for so much money "when they don't even need to have a degree". It doesn't mean it's right, but that perception is definitely out there.

yes it is, and perception IS everything, I am learning. If nursing is to gain equal footing with other medical professions, we need to upgrade our educational levels and become more competetive. And having business backgrounds would definately NOT hurt these days. AN ADN with, say, a BA or MBA in business could do us a lot of good.

fergus51 · Aug 7, 2005

Interesting. That must have infuriated the nurses.

Oh yeah... Did I mention I left the province right after that? :rotfl: In the end though, I do recognize that formal education is something people look at when determining pay for different occupations. It's why docs get so much money.