Should BSNs be paid more?

[edcampbe]

I know ADNs and BSNs both sit for the same NCLEX exam, both have approximately four years of education, and at best have negligible differences (over time) in their nursing skills. BSNs take courses than broaden their overall knowledge; however, ADNs have more clinical experience prior to entering the workforce. Should there be a differential for BSNs, or should the reward for obtaining a BSN lie in the ability to advance one's career?

I'm not trying to start an ADN vs BSN bashing, I'm just curious to see what you all think.

[pepsihla]

We have an APN at our unit now, I guess that is her title now. Not sure what she does but I do know she has a string of initials after her name: RN, BSN, MSN, NP, CNM, CNE - she uses all these on her lab coat, phone messages, etc. Yet her personality is wooden, her bedside manner poor, her skills questionable and I've yet to figure out what she does all day. Education does not make you a good nurse.

Melissa

You are using one nurses personality/experience and shortfalls for all whom are educated and excel in the nursing profession with all the credentials. I think it is an unfair accusation to many who have advanced their education.

Yes, education does make you a good nurse. It's how an individual takes that education and applies it to the nursing field. Your one example of "one nurse" does not justify "education does not make you a good nurse".

[brina]

I agree. Of course, at the present time, that's not feasible, as w/o ADN's the current healthcare system would collapse. As I have said before, though, eventually all entering nurses will be BSN's. It's occuring slowly and will become the standard as the the economy permits.

I agree. I am noticing that in my area, hospitals are saying "BSN preferred". Also the hospitals are letting the BSN substitute for a yr of experience. So for a job that requires at least 2 yrs experience, a BSN RN can apply and get it with just a year of experience.

[ali_gator]

If it takes the same amount of time ??? Why would you want to get an associate's instead of a bachelor's. That just does not seem to make logical sense at all. Because if you then decide you want to further your career and get a master's you need to have a bachelor's. On the question about which should make more money. I know people probably won't agree but IMHO 1. Nurses should be paid more in general and 2. BSN should be the minumum required degree to become an RN. I think by setting this standard it will be easier to demand the higher wages we deserve and gain more respect from other members of the health care profession.

Thank you!

[sayitgirl]

I personally think BSN's should get paid more.

Currently I am doing the RN to BSN program, and the time, effort and finances I put into it, should be recognized by my employer.

Although, I'm not saying because I'm continuing my education, it makes me better than nurses who hold an associates. I think that employers need to reward nurses who continue education so they can improve their patient care. I feel the same monetary rewards should be given to nurses whom attend conferences, complete CE's and earn specialized certificates.

I recognize the nurses who hold an associates degree in nursing are just as valuable as a BSN. Many have much more experience, and excel at patient care.

In summary, education should be rewarded because regardless of how much experience we have, we can always learn a new way to improve patient care. Nurses should be recognized by their employers for going above and beyond the extra effort to increase one's knowledge.

I wonder if you would have the same opinion if you were not pursuing a BSN....

[rstewart]

How is this for a novel approach: A given nurse's pay should reflect how well they perform their job relative to others performing the same job. Simply put, the highest performing nurses should earn the highest ages; the lowest performing nurses should earn the least.

Now, in theory, both sides of this discussion should welcome that modest proposal. After all, the nursing leaders in academia point to research which purports to demonstrate that education but not experience improves mortality rates. Others cite the superior critical thinking skills gleened from BSN programs. Still others broadly state that any hours beyond the Associates should make them a better nurse.

On the other hand, there are those who say that experience is the key, that nursing is learned "on the job". They say that the additional coursework required for a BSN is not significant or relevant or both. They also might say that the university setting is not the only place where additional education is available.

So I propose that we essentially ignore both experience and entry level education levels and instead focus on developing relevant job performance tools. I would argue that basing compensation upon years of combined education and experience is not especially common for professionals (teaching being one other obvious exception). And I do acknowledge that to one degree or another the evaluation process would be more subjective, at least until the assessment tool is fine tuned.

I would argue that education from whatever source derived has the potential to result in performance improvement, however, that potential is not always realized. Therfore I see no reason to reward education per se. The education may not have been relevant, the learner may not have the skills needed to put the education to use, the education may have become outdated etc. On the other hand most of us with work experience have seen individuals "plateau" in their performance for whatever reason. They never achieve what has been called "expert" competence despite years working on the same unit. So why should they earn more than their less experienced but more proficient peer?

Should BSNs be paid more? Or Less?

[mstigerlily]

Of COURSE it takes more than one nurse to prove a point, she is just one example.

I can't believe you can make a blanket statement like "Yes, education does make you a good nurse". How can that be? There are plenty of LVNs or ADNs who I think are the best nurses I've ever met.

I have a BA in Psych, ADN and am 10 classes away from my BSN now. I plan on going on for my master's as well. I don't think this education makes me a better nurse, I've found that the best experience as far as nursing is learned on the job.

Melissa

You are using one nurses personality/experience and shortfalls for all whom are educated and excel in the nursing profession with all the credentials. I think it is an unfair accusation to many who have advanced their education.

Yes, education does make you a good nurse. It's how an individual takes that education and applies it to the nursing field. Your one example of "one nurse" does not justify "education does not make you a good nurse".

[sbic56, BSN, RN]

rstewart

In theory, yours is a great idea, but I can't really see how the evaluation of how "good" a nurse is could be implemented. Judging performance would be a real challenge; nursing is not piece work, though proficiency would be a valued trait. Some nurses are gifted communicators or educators, but not so efficient. Would they get paid less? Few of us are great at everything, so it would be quite difficult to get paid for all positive attributes, as nurses are so individual and declaring areas of deficiency would be viewed as bias, I'm afraid. It would turn into a real nightmare trying to to come to some sort of consensus on who is worth the most.

[AngelovMercy]

If it takes the same amount of time ??? Why would you want to get an associate's instead of a bachelor's. That just does not seem to make logical sense at all. Because if you then decide you want to further your career and get a master's you need to have a bachelor's. On the question about which should make more money. I know people probably won't agree but IMHO 1. Nurses should be paid more in general and 2. BSN should be the minumum required degree to become an RN. I think by setting this standard it will be easier to demand the higher wages we deserve and gain more respect from other members of the health care profession.

I agree. Until the BSN becomes the entry level for RNs we will continue to be known as "semi-professionals" in the health care realm.

[underwatergirl]

Rstewart, I agree...your point is exacly what nusring needs, however spec is right..to develop something that can effectively measure those things is next to impossible. However with the right observation, research, application I think it could be possible. But so many things play into it, I see so often how an excellant nurse is critized because he/she doesn't communicate as effectively with co-workers, however her nursing is exceptional.

Now with regard to BSN as the entery level to nursing...I wholeheartedly disagree and find it demeaning to classify as semi-professionals. Being a professional is not based upon your education, it is based upon your actions and how well you perform a job and to what level your care is at. I consider myself a professional, so do my superivisors...I am an LPN.

My personal opinion on nursing is this..it should be a graduation process. Everyone who wants to be a nurse, spends xamt. of years as a CNA, then as a LPN, then as an ADN, then as a BSN. Then and truelly then will nursing be able to reach it's fullest of capabilities. The understanding, the commitment, the care...would take away from all of the bad things of nursing. Such as demeaning statements as semi-professionals.

Until you work, hence walk in the shoes of a CNA or LPN or ADN or BSN, you should never classify one level of nursing as semi-professionals. I think because of being a CNA and now an LPN, soon to be ADN...then BSN...I will be a much more well rounded nurse and more understanding of my peers roles and responsibilities.

Just a thought, for the ones that want entry level nursing...do total patient care then...tell me you don't appreciate or like those other levels of nursing. Such as, assessments, treatments, medications, ADL's, therapies...even little things such as VS. Because that is what will happen...instead of facilities, utilizing RN's at whatever level to the fullest of his/her capabilities, his or her time will be spent on those aspects of care that lower level nurses can handle effeciently.

I will continuously fight against entry level being BSN. Now I do believe that RN's with MSN, should be credentialed...but not till that level.

So I ask you, don't classify me or others as semi-professionals...are we semi-nurses, seriously...you don't know till you work with me or walk in my shoes. I do have to say I am very offended by that.

I am just curious...for the nurses who want entry level to be BSN...were you ever a CNA, LPN or RN, ADN????

Thanks for listening,

Annette

[austin heart, BSN, RN]

correct... and just as the lpn cannot sign with the rn behind her name, the adn nurse is not a bsn nurse... they've not had enough formal education.

no i would not being doing the same job, i say that for these reason's, my knowledge base is test with nclex-rn...i am no longer working under the qualifications of an lpn.

exactly my point when you consider the fact that the bsn practices from a broader knowledge base than the adn, right?

jen

i still think that you are missing the point. we are comparing adns to bsns in bedside nursing with the same responsabilaties. and i don't know about the rest of the adns posting here but i considered my nursing education very formal! and as far as a bsn having a "broader knowledge base" than an adn it is all in how you look at it. no matter what degree you have you are required to have a set amount of college clinical nursing and classroom hours logged in order to graduate and set the nclex. all the extra hours and "broader knowledge base" that comes with the bsn is from the management classes that you are required to take.

i found it comical when some one posted "education does make you a good nurse". well how about the bsn educated nurse that i oriented in ccu that asked me what a p wave was or the bsn that admitted that she had never successfully started an iv and she had been a nurse for 2 years? are they good nurses? i don't think so, but that is just my opinion. i recover open-hearts and take care of patients with iabps, these are both very specialized. do you think that a nurse who works along side of me in the ccu but does have the knowledge or skill ability to do these things should make more money than i just because she has her bsn? in my opinion no. i have a friend who i work with in the er who is an adn. she is currently studying for her cen exam. if she passes it should she continue to make less money than her bsn counterpart who can not pass the exam? i think not. i think that in bedside nursing that your pay should reflect your practicing knowledge base, qualifications and certifications, not your degree status.

and another thing, i am highly offended when someone says that i am a "semi-professional" because i do not have the big fat bsn behind my name! please, give me a break!!!!!!!!

[sbic56, BSN, RN]

So I ask you, don't classify me or others as semi-professionals...are we semi-nurses, seriously...you don't know till you work with me or walk in my shoes. I do have to say I am very offended by that.

I am just curious...for the nurses who want entry level to be BSN...were you ever a CNA, LPN or RN, ADN????

Thanks for listening,

Annette

I don't think anyone is discrediting other levels of nursing for what they contribute or their worth to the profession. It's just that if all nurses were BSN's (eventually) there would be one consistant standard for nurses. There would be no special staffing considerations because of limted scopes of practice. The public perception would improve and it would bring more respect to the profession, as education does matter in the eye of the public. Most professionals now have at least a bachelors degree. My son's computer science job requires a bachelors degree, so it just makes good sense that those who hold lives in their hands should have at least as much education as a computer programmer. To be honest, it is alot about politics and perception. I am not saying nurses will even be better for the increased education just because of that alone. But, I do believe the goal should be to have all nurses be BSN's for the sake of an even playing field, if nothing else. Hec, I started as an NA, no certification needed! I have seen the evolution of it all. If I weren't looking at retiring in 10 years, I'd be getting the BSN, too. Lastly, this debate would be dead, if we were all BSN's!

[underwatergirl]

The public will never fully respect us, until they stop publising the mistakes of nurses and start publishing the greatness of nurses. A BSN won't make that happen. Honestly, just because a nurse has BSN behind her name...doesn't mean I respect her as a fellow nurse or as a patient. Give me a reason to respect you and then I shall. I believe the majority of pt's feel that way. I have been a patient a few times in my life, I have seen all different levels, to be nothing less than frank with you from my personal experience, I would much rather have an experienced ADN than BSN at any level. I am sorry for who that may offend, but that is my personal experience as a patient. As a nurse/co-worker I have seen good and bad on all levels of nursing. But I do find many more ADN's or nurses that have traveled up the chain to be more personal in daily duties.

At my current position I am the only LPN, all the other RN's are at least BSN due to military requirements, but they show respect to me cause I have earned it, not one of them have addressed me at less than a nurse. But I will tell you this, a couple of them I worry about with in regards to patients, but that is anywhere and everywhere you work.

I think being a good nurse/professional isn't something school can give you, it must come from the inside and must be learned/experienced. Based on the last recent points, I almost feel as if some BSN is dividing us nurses and pushing our values aside. That hurts our nurse ability reputation in it's self.

We must unite and stand together, but first we must accept every level of nursing. Respect will come when nurses find happiness in his/her career...patients can see that...be happy...don't divide us more.

NO MINIMAL REQUIREMENT OF BSN, ALL LEVELS OF NURSING WELCOMED.

Annette