Should BSNs be paid more?

sbic56, BSN, RN · Aug 7, 2005

We are civil servants to our public however we are not repected as fire fighters (no bachloers here), police officers (again no bachloers)...those men and women recieve respect because the community is constantly being informed of good behaviors or good actions taken by them...but not nurses...

According to these stats, nurses rank well in respect. (I think police generally get a bad rap as they have to make unpopular/controversial decisions; people "respect" nurses/firefighters, as they nearly exclusively are the "helpers", where as police may be trouble. :uhoh21: Plus, the media has exploited some of their bad decisions; perhaps more education would be helpful to them.)

http://www.gktgazette.com/2002/jun/lookingglass.asp

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2014128.stm

Still, the overall respect as a profession would increase with uniform education standards in place. Don't most generally have more faith in a doctor over a chiropracter? Or a CNM over a lay midwife?

Again I am sorry to who I offend, I do believe there are good BSN's our there, I hope to encounter them as a patient someday. I hope this also helps people understand where respect from a patient comes from.

I think you got burned by a few poor nurses who happened to be BSN's. I honestly cannot see the relationship between ability to care and level of nursing education completed. Degrees do not define character.

underwatergirl · Aug 7, 2005

I think you got burned by a few poor nurses who happened to be BSN's. I honestly cannot see the relationship between ability to care and level of nursing education completed. Degrees do not define character.

Spic, you are right I did, however I would like to see more BSN nurses be more personal with patients. When I come across one as a patient, I will surely change my opinion.

If people want respect they need to earn it, when you deal with career that deals with the public, I just don't see a degree making that happen.

A person may flash BSN all they want, however if the patient care isn't there, if the caringness that is nurse is suppose to have isn't there...If advocacy isn't there...all that exist is knowledge, all you really have in the end is a good student. Sometimes knowledge hinders nurses, because we follow what a book may say, sometimes (even myself) I don't always hear what a patient says because my book knowledge tells me differently.

I think trying to put nurses at a level of MD's with credentialing, only pushes our importance in the healthcare team aside...if you wanna be a doc then do it but turn nursing into medical doctors or at that level. It is scary because alot of md's are pushing for this, for many reason's.

I still have yet to hear valid reason why a entery level nursing should be BSN, the only thing I hear is for respect...respect is not given with a degree...there are MD's that I have no respect for whatsoever...there are countless other professions with higher degree...that there isn't respect there for them...it isn't about degree but rather overal image.

annette

SmilingBluEyes · Aug 7, 2005

So, a better educated nursing force is not a legitimate reason in your eyes?

I am not talking respect, but POWER gained from KNOWLEDGE and EDUCATION.

underwatergirl · Aug 7, 2005

So, a better educated nursing force is not a legitimate reason in your eyes?
I am not talking respect, but POWER gained from KNOWLEDGE and EDUCATION.

I feel that nurses gain the most education with experience, sure they can gain some knowledge in school. But true intelligence exist only when knowledge gained is applied to real life. I feel nurses learn more on the job. I think BSN has it's place but I believe in LPN's and ADN RN before BSN, I don't think that should ever change...each nurse of varying levels as there skills to apply to real life. We shouldn't pull that away by thinking we can get it by power

Nursing isn't about power, it is about caring for patients. A nurse can do that at a LPN, ADN or BSN level.

Do you really think that BSN is the only way to knowledge/education??? Cause I am sure there are LPN's out there and RN's ADN that have a broader knowledge base then perhaps a BSN. But they gained it in the best way, experience. Don't minimize the roles of LPN's and ADN's...because it's us that are freeing you up for your more technical capabilities..you really think that nursing would be of value to have a BSN doing what an LPN can handle?? Taking away from the critical advance task that she can't do know cause she has these task of lesser degree to handle.

I believe keep each role of a nurse LPN, ADN, BSN...use each to his/her fullest extent of capabilities...then we will have a more effective healthcare team for our patients.

I really don't see this happening...because the program MA(medical assistants) is hitting hard and growing fast. Why do you think that is??? Because facilities are seeing the value of freeing up LPN, ADN, and BSN for more technical task and skills...So we have a healthcare team like this...CNA, MA, LPN, RN-ADN, RN-BSN, RN-MSN, Physicians and of course other theraputic healthcare providers such as PT, OT, RT...etc. We all play a vital role in healthcare...as a LPN soon to be RN, I want to be used 90% of my time to my fullest capabilities...by going to one entery level nursing BSN, that wouldn't happen.

Hope that explains it more...

Annette

brina · Aug 7, 2005

NOT A SINGLE BSN nurse as my nurse ever was supportive of me or caring, meaning ok telling the doctor she needs a break, or holding my hand or any form of comfort what so ever. You know I saw the same thing with my dad in the hospital...that is why I choose to work my way up in nursing. Because I didn't want to be become bitter and hurtful like some of the BSN's. But everytime I saw an ADN, he/she was that way...supportive of me, caring, an advocate...everything in a nurse I desire and strive to put forward everyday. I saw the same with the LPN's who were with me or my father...they cared more about the emotional wellbeing of the patient. Again I am sorry for whatever BSN reads this, I pray you are not like this...the next time your patient is hurting, scared, needing a break from a procedure, hold his or her hand an be the advocate. I can only pray as I grow older that I can see this coming forth in BSN's.
Annette

Generalizations of ALL kind are hurtful, as well as ignorant. Whether we are dealing with race, religion or professions, generalizations are wrong. Common sense tells us that not ALL of ANYTHING is one particular way. There are good nurses, bad nurses, considerate nurses, selfish nurses, etc. at all levels. Just as with people, just as with individuals, there are all kinds.

Having said that, we don't automatically like a physician because of the degree that they hold, that comes from their manner. However, there is a level of respect that comes and SHOULD come to that physician because of the position that they hold. Keeping that respect is up to that physician. Get it? We automatically give respect because of the education and time and dedication that went into getting that title. Keeping the respect is up to that Dr. by him being a good doctor. Being a physician does not make you a good one. Being a BSN RN does not make you a good one, and being an ADN RN does not make you a good nurse. That is up to you. But in our profession as nurses, it is just the opposite. Because we have so many entrances into the profession, and your nurse could be a diploma grad, an Associate Degree nurse or a BSN nurse, we are not automatically given the same respect. We have to earn it FIRST. There's nothing wrong with earning your respect first, but we are the only healthcare discipline that is like that. How would you feel if you had an associate degree physician as your doctor? Right now, we know that our docs had to have at LEAST 8 yrs of schooling, so SURELY he's learned something there, right? Now, instead of schooling we have a AD doc, thats learned his on the job. Is the AD doc a good doc? That remains to be seen. Is the 8yr. of school doc a good doc? Once again that remains to be seen. But right off the back I have more confidence in the doc that went to school for 8 yrs. Could that doc disappoint me? Sure!

What I am saying is that schooling, education is not going to be the end all, be all of the makings of a good doctor or nurse. However there is an air of respectablility and confidencen that automatically comes in knowing that your healthcare professional has studied, and diligently completed the requirements of his chosen profession. Period. To say that the BSN nurse should be paid more, or should be the entry level into the profession is not the same as saying that the AD nurse is not a good nurse. If a person hears that in those statements.... I think they should really look into themselves and ask themselves why do they really feel that way. To say that another person is nice looking does not take ANYTHING away from me!! So, for the BSN to be the entry level is not saying that the AD nurse is not good at what she does, it is not saying that the BSN nurse is a better nurse than she is, its saying simply that.... For the "professionalism" of our profession, for the respectability of our profession, we need to be at least on the same playground as the other members of the health care team.

TRichter · Aug 7, 2005

I am a BSN working on a MSN. I work with children, some deathly ill. I have had patients and parents thank me for helping the hospital experience better for the entire family. I even had a parent, who's son passed away while I was taking care of him, come back to thank me for all that I did. That means more to me than any degree I could ever get. I am sorry you and your'e family had such a bad experience, it is for that reason I became a pediatric nurse: To make the experience a little better if I can, and to show that there are still some nures that care about the patients more than the pay check. I think we should all look at your experience and bonder "What am I like with me patient?" I believe BSN should be paid more, as well as a MSN. The knowledge is there, however a non-degree nurse can bypass that raised pay by performance pay increases. Show youre heart in your work and you will be rewarded emotionally as well as economically.

Hospitals treat nurses poorly, because nurses tolerate it. Also because there isn't organizations that stand up and fight for us. We have the BON, they don't report positive aspects of nursing they only report what a such and such nurse did badly. So many nurses are just willing to tolerate that form of treatment because of that we have the lack of respect, recognition in our jobs. We are civil servants to our public however we are not repected as fire fighters (no bachloers here), police officers (again no bachloers)...those men and women recieve respect because the community is constantly being informed of good behaviors or good actions taken by them...but not nurses...the BON hurts our reputation more than anything. So again respect isn't given by a degree, perhaps that is part of it, but mainly it is societies view on a particular profession.
Regarding clinical experience in school, of course you didn't experience more acute care clinicals with the practical nurse program. We are rarely used in it and if we are, it is generally at a lesser role than what we are capable of doing...when I worked in surgery all of my training was on the job, barely anything was brought from my education.
As for 3 years of clinicals, you still will need that year of learning. Internship would be perhaps helpful for nursing however, you still are not feeling the weight of responsibilities on your chest...until you are fully working. No school and no internshpi can give you that. You will feel differently when you begin actually working and then I think you will understand what I am talking about...that first year after nursing school is a wake up call.
That being said that is why I advocate for the graduation program...I feel that my experience as an LPN is making my further education much better and my role as a nurse in my patient's life.
If this world was to go to entry level BSN, the respect from the public and the organizations would not change very much if at all...I say this because we still have the BON only reporting the wrong doing's of nurses...never anything positive to say about what we do. Patients on a whole don't respect healthcare the way they should. PAtients don't take on their own health responibly, they dont follow instructions etc. But yet we nurses advocate for them, and try everything to help them feel better.
The roles of nurses has greatly changed, more and more things from the physicians are being put on the nurses role, this will not stop...I don't think it should, that is another reason I don't advocate for BSN entery level, because as the doctors lay more things on the nurses you need the higher qualified nurses to handle those things...your MSN's, your BSN's, your ADN...so keep the lower levels of nursing to handle the things they can to free up the hands and the time of the higher level.
My honest opinion is this...nurses want more respect, however we don't unite to gain our respect by making the public aware of our vital roles in healthcare. We want more respect from MD's, well we sure stopped giving them the respect they deserve, what comes around goes around. WE are not on the level as a MD, we have far less education and far less schooling and far less pay. A MD will respect you when you first show him/her the respect and then you show your capabilities as a strong nurse. I have never worked for an MD I don't recieve respect from, in fact most of them we hang out after work, even now when I don't work for them anymore. In case you forgot, I am just an LPN working on the ADN. I will tell you, the stories I hear from them, from different levels of nursing scares me beyond anything.
Now in regards to my posting about as a patient BSN vs ADN, most of the time I have seen the title posted on his or her name tag, yes as a nurse I like to converse with my fellow nurses even as a patient in such conversing the topic of degree comes up. Let me tell you how in depth my view regarding perfering an ADN vs a BSN. My father was paralized when I was 4...our family spent frequent times in hospitals(in about 12 years my father had 29 surgeries...major at least 2 weeks in the hospital) and doctors clinics due to all the complications my father went through in his life. So I have seen nursing since I was 4 yrs old, wanted to be one since about that time too...IN addition to that, I have 2 emergency major surgeries...due to complications of the surgery...major procedures done to me...for a week straight I had to report to the same ER that put me into surgery, mind you from the surgery that mess me up and have invasive procedures done for 7 days, I mean being full awake and having to be cut open, then sewed up. Sure the pain meds helped so I didn't scream. Now going through all of that...I got to see, you know what NOT A SINGLE BSN nurse as my nurse ever was supportive of me or caring, meaning ok telling the doctor she needs a break, or holding my hand or any form of comfort what so ever. You know I saw the same thing with my dad in the hospital...that is why I choose to work my way up in nursing. Because I didn't want to be become bitter and hurtful like some of the BSN's. But everytime I saw an ADN, he/she was that way...supportive of me, caring, an advocate...everything in a nurse I desire and strive to put forward everyday. I saw the same with the LPN's who were with me or my father...they cared more about the emotional wellbeing of the patient. Again I am sorry for whatever BSN reads this, I pray you are not like this...the next time your patient is hurting, scared, needing a break from a procedure, hold his or her hand an be the advocate. I can only pray as I grow older that I can see this coming forth in BSN's. Because that is a big part of what makes you a good nurse...it also builds patient trust with you, which in return builds high levels of respect. A good nurse to me is not one who knows everything in the world or who as such and such degree...but it is one who is happy taking care of me, shows a real interest in my health as well as my emotional wellbeing. Advocates for me to the MD's. Then if he/she doesn't understand what is going on with me, he/she researches it and ask questions...he/she doesn't need to know everything, heshe just needs to know how to find it. So again I tell you it is not degree that ears your your respect...it is how you are with your patients. My patients I see on a routinely baises has a high level of respect for me, they all know I am a LPN, but they also don't go to my RN counterparts...only to me, cause they know I am there for them in everyway...I will advocate for them...if I dont' know the answer I look it up for them. But I have earned my respect...no degree gave that to me.
Again I am sorry to who I offend, I do believe there are good BSN's our there, I hope to encounter them as a patient someday. I hope this also helps people understand where respect from a patient comes from.
Annette

oldnurse newnurse · Aug 7, 2005

I'm not trying to nitpick, but not all ADN graduates have more clinical experience than BSN graduates. My BSN program includes three years of clinicals at about 12-16 hours per week. The first two years of clinicals are in the hospital, and the final year is spent studying community health and doing clinicals in a variety of different settings.
The whole "BSN programs are all theory with less clinical time" idea is a myth.
And...the BSN program at my school takes closer to 5 years to finish.

I'm in school currently for my BSN I attend St. Xavier University here in chicago and there are quite a few hospitals that claim they pay more for the BSN. I think BSN should get paid more because my program did take very close to five years to finish and I went full-time the entire time. So more time spent in school more money. Don't the MSN nurse get paid more? If everyone got paid the same then why get a higher degree? Why not just stop at the ADN/ASN level? Don't beat me up guys.

ali_gator · Aug 7, 2005

Again I am sorry to who I offend, I do believe there are good BSN's our there, I hope to encounter them as a patient someday. I hope this also helps people understand where respect from a patient comes from.
Annette

There are good B.S.N. nurses out there? What, are they in the vast minority? I'm sick of hearing stories of the B.S.N. who couldn't. I find suggestions that B.S.N.s are elitist snobs with no clinical competence very offensive, just as you find being classified as a "semiprofessional" offensive.

For every idiot B.S.N. nurse out there, there's an A.D.N. just as inept.

If you want to argue against a B.S.N. as entry into practice, fine. Argue in a way that is constructive. Taking cheap shots at their competence, however, does not add to your credibility.

underwatergirl · Aug 7, 2005

Ali gator,

You qouted me, I did not take a cheap shot... I didnot classify all BSN's as being what I experienced. I did state I know they(BSN Good ones) are out there and I hope to encounter one as a patient. That is not a cheap shot, that is just stating from my experience. That is not a cheap shot, there are alot of BSN's that I have worked with and work with that I respect at many levels. So please reread what I wrote cause it wasn't a cheap shot.

Oldnurse Newnurse,

It has been stated that there should be incentive for BSN's but not as bedside same job same pay, as an entry level. I think that a BSN with experience should make more than an ADN with experience...but at an entry level I do not think so, because they sit for the same exam...if the BON felt that the additional education should be of such, then I believe they would have a seperate test for that...if BSN's want higher pay, then I say make a harder test for them. If BSN's took a harder exam, that tested them on all of that additional education they gained, then yes I say pay them more. But as of right now...what makes a BSN a RN and what makes an ADN a RN is the same exact NCLEX, therefore...same entry level pay.

Trichter,

You sound like an Amazing nurse, I would love to be your patient. I thank you for recognizing the importance of caring nature of a nurse is extremely valuable if not the most valuable thing obtained.

Brina,

I did not make a generalization, I stated from my own view point and experience, I also stated I know that the good nurses are out there and I hope to meet them. I don't automatically respect a MD, because I know how long he/she went to school. They only gain my respect when it is earned. That goes for every other person on this planet. I don't think anyone should find value with somone based on required respect r/t a degree. If we do we are back a square one, not recognizing an individual for his/her strengths, he/she brings to society. Respect is something that is earned, just as trust is...it is the same quality to me.

For the nurses who feel BSN of entry level would be of value to the nursing profession...please explain to me the task of the other nurses, meaning ADN, LPN, MA, CNA...or do you want a BSN do to all of that? Or would it make more sense to utilize each person to the fullest extent of his or her capabilities and allow the other things to be handled by other nurses who are qualified for? Do you want to spend your time doing bed baths, passing medications, VS...instead of doing your assessment and working with the physician to help the patient reach a level of quality of life?

Annette

fergus51 · Aug 7, 2005

BSN as entry to practice has nothing to do with LPNs or CNAs, so I don't see any reason to even discuss them as far as this issue is concerned. It wouldn't affect them at all.

It's now the reality in my home province that all new RNs will be BSNs and yes, they do baths, vitals, pass meds, etc sometimes alone, sometimes with the help of LPNs and NAs. Their education doesn't put them above those tasks. LPNs and NAs are not affected by the BSN requirement because they are not RNs.

SmilingBluEyes · Aug 7, 2005

BSN as entry to practice has nothing to do with LPNs or CNAs, so I don't see any reason to even discuss them as far as this issue is concerned. It wouldn't affect them at all.
It's now the reality in my home province that all new RNs will be BSNs and yes, they do baths, vitals, pass meds, etc sometimes alone, sometimes with the help of LPNs and NAs. Their education doesn't put them above those tasks. LPNs and NAs are not affected by the BSN requirement because they are not RNs.

Exactly. Professional nursing needs to move into the 21st century---and education is key. RN practice should be baccalaureate or higher, if we are to keep up. This has nothing to do w/LPN and CNA practices. They are not RN's. Different area.

SmilingBluEyes · Aug 7, 2005

I feel that nurses gain the most education with experience, sure they can gain some knowledge in school. But true intelligence exist only when knowledge gained is applied to real life. I feel nurses learn more on the job. I think BSN has it's place but I believe in LPN's and ADN RN before BSN, I don't think that should ever change...each nurse of varying levels as there skills to apply to real life. We shouldn't pull that away by thinking we can get it by power
Nursing isn't about power, it is about caring for patients. A nurse can do that at a LPN, ADN or BSN level.
Do you really think that BSN is the only way to knowledge/education??? Cause I am sure there are LPN's out there and RN's ADN that have a broader knowledge base then perhaps a BSN. But they gained it in the best way, experience. Don't minimize the roles of LPN's and ADN's...because it's us that are freeing you up for your more technical capabilities..you really think that nursing would be of value to have a BSN doing what an LPN can handle?? Taking away from the critical advance task that she can't do know cause she has these task of lesser degree to handle.
I believe keep each role of a nurse LPN, ADN, BSN...use each to his/her fullest extent of capabilities...then we will have a more effective healthcare team for our patients.
I really don't see this happening...because the program MA(medical assistants) is hitting hard and growing fast. Why do you think that is??? Because facilities are seeing the value of freeing up LPN, ADN, and BSN for more technical task and skills...So we have a healthcare team like this...CNA, MA, LPN, RN-ADN, RN-BSN, RN-MSN, Physicians and of course other theraputic healthcare providers such as PT, OT, RT...etc. We all play a vital role in healthcare...as a LPN soon to be RN, I want to be used 90% of my time to my fullest capabilities...by going to one entery level nursing BSN, that wouldn't happen.
Hope that explains it more...
Annette

AH but if you expect nursing to make GAINs, if you expect safer staffing ratios,(for example)------ if you expect us to keep up in 21st century medicine/nursing and BUSINESS, you have to expect our education to keep pace. Apparently, you are not reading my posts too carefully. NO WHERE did I say BSN was the be-all, end-all. I said an ADN coupled with a bachelor degree of a related discipline would be just as beneficial.

Remember, I am an AD nurse, so it's not about my thinking BSNs are "better" at all. I think it is high time nursing come into its own and move forward. I think education is the very key to open doors for us there....I think we need more nurses in legislature and administration...HOW can that happen if we stop at the AD level in education?

Answer: it won't.

Is that "Fair" or "good"? Maybe not, but it is how it is. Education is EVERYthing in business today. And make no mistake, medicine and nursing ARE businesses.

AND-----If you think nursing is not about power, you are not thinking about our diminishing roles in healthcare overall ( Example: TPTB feel they can and will replace licensed nurses with CMA's in many hospitals and LTCs)--- the need for our strong voice to stop changes that diminish us is greater than it ever was. Whether you like it or not, politics comes into play. HOW are we ever to make inroads or political gains without education?

Answer: we won't.

I won't argue experience is not important. You are right-on. It's critical. Anyone who knows me here, knows the enormous value I place on it. But it's not enough. I think in order to compete, in order for professional nursing to come into its own, we need to raise educational stardards and stakes for entry-level RN's. I hope I am making myself clearer, too.

I thank you for taking the time to clarify how you feel and respect your right to your opinion. I just happen to disagree.