School's hidden agenda, "NCLEX pass rate: Weed out students who will not pass"

muffingirl · Oct 13, 2009

My school is using a predictor test to weed nursing students out..some are not being allowed to take the NCLEX because of these tests.It is totally unfair

ohmeowzer RN, RN · Oct 13, 2009

i never knew that was a hidden agenda.. on my first day of nursing school they said " only the best and brightest will make it.. see the person sitting next to you they may not be there" of course they want to weed people out who wants a nurse who can't do her job... i said weed those students out...

TheCommuter, BSN, RN · Oct 13, 2009

My school is using a predictor test to weed nursing students out..some are not being allowed to take the NCLEX because of these tests.It is totally unfair

Exit exams are becoming increasingly common. While it may not seem unfair, these schools of nursing do not want to send students to the testing center to take NCLEX if there's even a slight chance that the pupil might be underprepared. Schools love to advertise their "wonderful" NCLEX passage rates, and they're going to do almost anything to keep them high. Nursing schools build their reputations with high NCLEX pass rates. A school with a 100% pass rate will generate more interest than a school with a 70% pass rate.

My LPN/LVN program did this; we took the ERI exit exam a few weeks before graduation. We all had to attain a score greater than 58%, or the school's directors would not send our eligibility paperwork into the state, thereby preventing us from taking NCLEX. I recall that six students scored at or below 58%, and were barred from taking NCLEX until they retook the exit exam to achieve a higher score. These 6 students were issued their diplomas and permitted to graduate with the rest of the class, but the school wasn't going to send them to take NCLEX until the scores on the exit exams were high enough. I am now attending an RN program, and we take Kaplan predictor exams after each course completed (peds, psych, OB/maternal health, etc.).

Although this practice might be cold and insensitive, it is also business as usual. The directors of these nursing programs seem to think that a student who cannot pass an exit exam or predictor exam is way too risky of a person to be allowed to take his/her state boards.

cursedandblessed · Oct 14, 2009

We had to get 97% chance of passing the Nclex on the ATI. Which equals to a less than 74% total questions correct (I got 99% and had 78% total questions correct.)

If licensure is the goal, and you HAVE to pass the NCLEX to achieve it, then IMO it doesn't make sense to graduate students who can't pass it.

morte, LPN, LVN · Oct 14, 2009

We had to get 97% chance of passing the Nclex on the ATI. Which equals to a less than 74% total questions correct (I got 99% and had 78% total questions correct.)
If licensure is the goal, and you HAVE to pass the NCLEX to achieve it, then IMO it doesn't make sense to graduate students who can't pass it.

this is the point, isnt it?....but the exit exam is not the solution.....properly educating the students that you accept, after a proper and thorough vetting process, is how that should be done....

CuriousMe · Oct 14, 2009

this is the point, isnt it?....but the exit exam is not the solution.....properly educating the students that you accept, after a proper and thorough vetting process, is how that should be done....

Well yeah, but there are a couple bumps in the road for that statement. Education isn't a passive process, the student has an input into the process as well and as I don't know any school admissions team with precognition, they are only predicting that they believe the students they've accepted will be willing and able to do what they need to.

So, if there's a nursing cohort of 60 and 2 don't pass the exit exam does that mean that the school didn't properly educate the students?

Obviously, if you have large percentages of a cohort not passing...then you have to look at the educational program....but if the overwhelming majority are passing their exit exam, there needs to be some personal responsibility on the students part that didn't pass.

morte, LPN, LVN · Oct 14, 2009

Well yeah, but there are a couple bumps in the road for that statement. Education isn't a passive process, the student has an input into the process as well and as I don't know any school admissions team with precognition, they are only predicting that they believe the students they've accepted will be willing and able to do what they need to.
So, if there's a nursing cohort of 60 and 2 don't pass the exit exam does that mean that the school didn't properly educate the students?
Obviously, if you have large percentages of a cohort not passing...then you have to look at the educational program....but if the overwhelming majority are passing their exit exam, there needs to be some personal responsibility on the students part that didn't pass.

1) not nec., preadmit testing and actual talking to the prospective student should do it...and taking into account how that prospective student made that impressive GPA, was it one class at a time? or closer to fulltime?

2) money wasted, this class should have done well on the nclex, perhaps all may have passed, since the "passing" on the exit tests is set very high

CuriousMe · Oct 14, 2009

1) not nec., preadmit testing and actual talking to the prospective student should do it...and taking into account how that prospective student made that impressive GPA, was it one class at a time? or closer to fulltime?

I disagree, preadmit testing shows that a student can succeed on standardized tests...not that they'll be a successful nursing student. In the same vein, interviews display their interviewing skills, not whether they'll be a successful nursing student (and you don't need to talk to a student to see if they've taken their classes one at a time...every transcript I've seen is broken down into academic terms.)

There's nothing rocket science about the concepts of nursing school, but the volume of content and the pace it's delivered certainly do differ from prereq classes. IMHO that is one of the challenging parts of the process. The 15 credits I took a term (while working full time) doing my prereqs didn't keep me near as busy as nursing school and part time work. Someone could rock out at the prereq pace, but have trouble with the pace of nursing school. Folks in my program have had just that problem.

2) money wasted, this class should have done well on the nclex, perhaps all may have passed, since the "passing" on the exit tests is set very high

Statistically, the exit exams are supposed to be a good predictor of passing NCLEX (I don't have time to find the stats now, if you want them I'll dig them up tonight sometime). So, of course passing the exit exam isn't set very high....they're not trying to predict that you'll get a 95 on the NCLEX....since that's not possible :-) They're trying to predict that you'll PASS the NCLEX.

I don't think I agree that it's money wasted, the point of my nursing school education is to prepare me to work as a nurse, in order to do that I need to get licenced....which of course I can't do without passing the boards. So, taking an exam before graduation that is a predictor of my success on NCLEX sounds like a good idea....gives folks a chance for remediation before they graduate (and incidentally, it is a true exit exam at my school....you could have a 4.0 but if you don't pass the exam you don't walk at graduation or get your diploma until you do).

morte, LPN, LVN · Oct 14, 2009

I disagree, preadmit testing shows that a student can succeed on standardized tests...not that they'll be a successful nursing student. In the same vein, interviews display their interviewing skills, not whether they'll be a successful nursing student (and you don't need to talk to a student to see if they've taken their classes one at a time...every transcript I've seen is broken down into academic terms.)
There's nothing rocket science about the concepts of nursing school, but the volume of content and the pace it's delivered certainly do differ from prereq classes. IMHO that is one of the challenging parts of the process. The 15 credits I took a term (while working full time) doing my prereqs didn't keep me near as busy as nursing school and part time work. Someone could rock out at the prereq pace, but have trouble with the pace of nursing school. Folks in my program have had just that problem.
Statistically, the exit exams are supposed to be a good predictor of passing NCLEX (I don't have time to find the stats now, if you want them I'll dig them up tonight sometime). So, of course passing the exit exam isn't set very high....they're not trying to predict that you'll get a 95 on the NCLEX....since that's not possible :-) They're trying to predict that you'll PASS the NCLEX.
I don't think I agree that it's money wasted, the point of my nursing school education is to prepare me to work as a nurse, in order to do that I need to get licenced....which of course I can't do without passing the boards. So, taking an exam before graduation that is a predictor of my success on NCLEX sounds like a good idea....gives folks a chance for remediation before they graduate (and incidentally, it is a true exit exam at my school....you could have a 4.0 but if you don't pass the exam you don't walk at graduation or get your diploma until you do).

either you are in a hurry, or are purposefully misreading what i wrote....1) is exactly what i was getting at, and 2) yes the passing on exit tests is set very high.

CuriousMe · Oct 14, 2009

either you are in a hurry, or are purposefully misreading what i wrote....1) is exactly what i was getting at, and 2) yes the passing on exit tests is set very high.

I am in a hurry, but I'm not misunderstanding you, I'm disagreeing with you. I'm saying that I don't think that preadmit testing and interviews will necessarily predict success in nursing school.

Standardized testing will predict general standardized testing ability, but not the ability to learn at the necessary pace, as even full time prereq coursework and full time work (for me anyway) weren't a predictor of pace.

Interviewing will predict that the candidate has interview skills....which anyone can learn. Again, not something that predicts success in nursing school.

Oh and just to round out the top three methods....essay's (even proctored essays) predict a student's ability to write.

morte, LPN, LVN · Oct 14, 2009

I am in a hurry, but I'm not misunderstanding you, I'm disagreeing with you. I'm saying that I don't think that preadmit testing and interviews will necessarily predict success in nursing school.
Standardized testing will predict general standardized testing ability, but not the ability to learn at the necessary pace, as even full time prereq coursework and full time work (for me anyway) weren't a predictor of pace.
Interviewing will predict that the candidate has interview skills....which anyone can learn. Again, not something that predicts success in nursing school.
Oh and just to round out the top three methods....essay's (even proctored essays) predict a student's ability to write.

none of these observations address the quote......please reread

CuriousMe · Oct 14, 2009

none of these observations address the quote......please reread

Ok, so below is the last bit your wrote about the topic.

not nec., preadmit testing and actual talking to the prospective student should do it...and taking into account how that prospective student made that impressive GPA, was it one class at a time? or closer to fulltime?

I'm disagreeing with this statement. I'm saying that there's no way that pre-admit testing and interviewing a prospective student will provide the admission team with the information you say it will. The admission team can not know (since they're missing that handy precognition skill) whether a candidate will be a successful nursing student. The criteria you outlined can show an ability with standardized tests and an ability to interview.....that's it.

I'm not sure how else to say it.

I think what we agree on is that the volume and pace of nursing school are different than pre-reqs. That still doesn't mean that I think an admissions team can predict success in nursing school from pre-admit exams and an interview.

If you'd like to further expand on your ideas, instead of just highlighting parts of my posts and denigrating either my motives or reading ability due to time constraints, it might help.