School's hidden agenda, "NCLEX pass rate: Weed out students who will not pass"

morte, LPN, LVN · Oct 14, 2009

Ok, so below is the last bit your wrote about the topic.
I'm disagreeing with this statement. I'm saying that there's no way that pre-admit testing and interviewing a prospective student will provide the admission team with the information you say it will. The admission team can not know (since they're missing that handy precognition skill) whether a candidate will be a successful nursing student. The criteria you outlined can show an ability with standardized tests and an ability to interview.....that's it.
I'm not sure how else to say it.
I think what we agree on is that the volume and pace of nursing school are different than pre-reqs. That still doesn't mean that I think an admissions team can predict success in nursing school from pre-admit exams and an interview.
If you'd like to further expand on your ideas, instead of just highlighting parts of my posts and denigrating either my motives or reading ability due to time constraints, it might help.

at no time did i enigrate your READING ability, in fact I gave you an out "perhaps you were too busy"...

there are schools that do not have these issues....what are they doing differently? and i think we agree that someone's academic capacity is not well tested on one or two courses a semester...esp for those not working or working part time....if they cant handle it then some other line of work would be a better match.....and i quote to define what i am addressing...

CuriousMe · Oct 14, 2009

at no time did i enigrate your READING ability, in fact I gave you an out "perhaps you were too busy"...
there are schools that do not have these issues....what are they doing differently? and i think we agree that someone's academic capacity is not well tested on one or two courses a semester...esp for those not working or working part time....if they cant handle it then some other line of work would be a better match.....and i quote to define what i am addressing...

I did say reading ability due to time constraints, so, I think that addresses what you said. If not, my apologies in misrepresenting you that wasn't my intention.

I don't think that having students take an exit exam is an "issue." And that is what we're talking about right? I know, I know....you think that if schools would just give a pre-admit exam and then interview candidates, all would be well. I think we'll just agree to disagree on that.

In my opinion giving an exit exam makes good sense. It gives students time to remediate before graduation and increases their chances of passing their boards.

Peace,

CuriousMe

jjjoy, LPN · Oct 14, 2009

Not allowing a graduated student to take the NCLEX:

If a student is THAT likely to fail the NCLEX, how were they able to pass EVERY nursing class for the last 2-4 years? Any school that consistently has a low pass rate really needs to look at their own program and not slap a band-aid on it. A 100% pass rate doesn't mean much if only 65% of ready-to graduate students ever even qualify for the NCLEX. And, if exit testing becomes the norm, then wouldn't regulators and students then look to the exit exam pass rate instead of the NCLEX pass rate?

Still, given the increasing trend of NCLEX-readiness exit exams, I think it could okay (though not the best use of limited time and resources) IF 1) the school makes it VERY clear from DAY 1 (meaning applications material as well) that there is this one final test that will determine whether or not they can take the NCLEX 2) there are materials available to help prepare for the predictor test 3) the school allows the student a reasonable period of time post-graduation to re-take the exit exam AND 4) that there's some alternative (??) out there besides going through *another entire program* to qualify to take the NCLEX in the future (remember, the student DID pass ALL of the nursing coursework).

Not allowing graduation:

It would seem to me that a student who has otherwise met all of the criteria to graduate should be *allowed to graduate* and get their degree (eg AA, BSN) regardless of what an NCLEX-predictor says. It's not unusual for a person to earn a degree in a field and never practice it professionally. Surely, a few nursing school graduates never even attempted taking the NCLEX, so why should a *predictor of NCLEX performance* determine if a student is allowed to graduate and get their college degree?

morte, LPN, LVN · Oct 14, 2009

I did say reading ability due to time constraints, so, I think that addresses what you said. If not, my apologies in misrepresenting you that wasn't my intention.
I don't think that having students take an exit exam is an "issue." And that is what we're talking about right? I know, I know....you think that if schools would just give a pre-admit exam and then interview candidates, all would be well. I think we'll just agree to disagree on that.
In my opinion giving an exit exam makes good sense. It gives students time to remediate before graduation and increases their chances of passing their boards.
Peace,
CuriousMe

rude, and a misrep of what i said. see post following yours.....

newnurse201222 · May 24, 2012

Apologies if I'm beating a dead horse, but NCLEX is stuck in my craw. For the life of me, I can't figure out why that's the best way to determine the quality of one's nursing ability. Why not give me a factual scenario, and then ask me to write out what I would do/expect to happen and grade me on whether I recognize issues and how I perform in this mock scenario? That's real. NCLEX questions simply aren't. They give you one (generally unintelligible) snippet of one instance of reality, and never ask, "What's next and why?"

I realize nursing is life and death. That, to me, is a reason nursing school and nursing should be EASY. Well, maybe not easy in the sense that little effort is required, but easy in the sense that the subject matter conveyed is conveyed in a clear, succinct manner. The more consequential an activity is, the more important it is that concepts be conveyed clearly, so everyone knows what to do. NCLEX questions are so convoluted and just plain odd, that the NCLEX is more akin to fraternity members insisting that because they were hazed, pledges must be hazed, too. I have never heard, and would like to see some "evidence based practice" studies on whether NCLEX gives the world better nurses than, say, a test similar to that I mentioned above.

And to Bala, I say, "A fish rots from the head down."

morte, LPN, LVN · May 24, 2012

because it would be cost prohibitive.......logical, but costly.

Apologies if I'm beating a dead horse, but NCLEX is stuck in my craw. For the life of me, I can't figure out why that's the best way to determine the quality of one's nursing ability. Why not give me a factual scenario, and then ask me to write out what I would do/expect to happen and grade me on whether I recognize issues and how I perform in this mock scenario? That's real. NCLEX questions simply aren't. They give you one (generally unintelligible) snippet of one instance of reality, and never ask, "What's next and why?"
I realize nursing is life and death. That, to me, is a reason nursing school and nursing should be EASY. Well, maybe not easy in the sense that little effort is required, but easy in the sense that the subject matter conveyed is conveyed in a clear, succinct manner. The more consequential an activity is, the more important it is that concepts be conveyed clearly, so everyone knows what to do. NCLEX questions are so convoluted and just plain odd, that the NCLEX is more akin to fraternity members insisting that because they were hazed, pledges must be hazed, too. I have never heard, and would like to see some "evidence based practice" studies on whether NCLEX gives the world better nurses than, say, a test similar to that I mentioned above.
And to Bala, I say, "A fish rots from the head down."

llg, PhD, RN · May 24, 2012

... and remember ... The purpose of the NCLEX is just to certify that the person has mastered certain basic material sufficient to practice at a base level of safety. Passing the NCLEX is just one of several criteria that a person has to meet before they are given a license to actually practice. People often forget that and think of the NCLEX as the only thing required for a license.

People are not allowed to TAKE the NCLEX unless they have graduated from an approved school -- one which should include such scenario-based evaluations in their evaluation of the student -- along with suitable supervised clinial practice, etc. Only AFTER you meet the criteria for graduation and are certified by your school to have passed their evaluations of your performance level ... and are screened for your criminal record ... etc. are you allowed to take the NCLEX.

Stephalump · May 24, 2012

This a major reason why I chose the school I did. It's a small program in larger area - very competitive, but their NCLEX pass rate is only around 90%. Never above 95% And they make zero apologies for that. The program is in no way easy; no one is just passed on through. However, their intentions are to help you succeed, even if that means the director of the program is tutoring you personally. If you are willing to work and accept the help, there's no reason you should fail (barring outside things like unrelated stress, pregnancy, moving, or whatever.)

They figure if you complete the program, you should do well on the NCLEX. If you don't, you can buy a study guide and study at home for free. Their job is to make sure you leave knowing as much about nursing as possible.

I respect that.

I should add that the schools average attrition rate is less than 10%. Not bad in respects to a 90% NCLEX pass rate. I'm sure the small class size contributes to success...but small class size means less money ::gasp!::

rubato, ASN, RN · May 24, 2012

My school is like this too. At least 95% of the class will pass, sometimes 100%. They have a somewhat high NCLEX pass rate in the 90s, but they are more concerned with helping their 64 RN students become knowledgeable.

newnurse201222 · May 24, 2012

If the NCLEX did in fact measure nursing ability, nobody would distinguish between preparing for the NCLEX and "learning to be a nurse." That's the rub for me, anyway. I wonder whether anyone has measured the correlation of nursing knowledge and NCLEX performance - whether people who aced the NCLEX are actually better nurses, and/or whether people who flunked the NCLEX a couple times are actually worse nurses. Who thinks *that* is true? (listen for the crickets). If crickets are what we hear, then we should speak up and advocate a better course for preparing nurses, imho.

Surely I'm not the first person to think of this. Aren't there some organizations that advocate on behalf of nursing education, etc.?

allnurses Guide · May 24, 2012

The NCLEX is a minimum competency exam, nothing more, nothing less. There is quite a bit of evidence supporting its validity in estimating competency.

morte, LPN, LVN · May 24, 2012

Hmm citations please.

The NCLEX is a minimum competency exam, nothing more, nothing less. There is quite a bit of evidence supporting its validity in estimating competency.