Many ADN-BSN online programs tried to deceive students into believing that they can get their BSN from ADN in 13 months or less. That's a lie and false advertisement. They are not telling the whole story.
For example, University of Texas at Arlington advertises this past spring that you can get your degree from ADN to BSN in 13 months. After you enrolled and pay their high tuition rates, they want you to take from them American History I and II, Texas history, and other courses that have nothing to do with Nursing. You can take these same courses from Community Colleges in California at 1/6 their cost, but if you do they may or may not accept them for credit. For example, I have a friend who took US History from a community college. UTA does not accept them for transfer credit. Their Academic Advisors are trained to do what is good for business, and not what is good for you, the student. Be careful and do not fall for their traps! They want you to stay longer in their school, and pay for their courses that nobody wants to take, such as political science, and so forth
I heard that Excelsior College gives you 35 BSN credits for your NCLEX. They don't give you the run around treatment. They are located in Albany, New York. Their tuition is a little higher, but you can graduate sooner with no hassle and stumbling blocks.
You have your opinion, and I have mine. The nursing students in the university I teach in are the brightest, most sought after graduates in the state. Our CON prefers to have more professors and not as many adjunct. I know for a fact we create thoughtful, bright, and exceptional critical thinkers. Too bad the instructors you encounter are scared for their jobs, but I find that interesting, why don't they just go back into hospital or community nursing? That is where the real money is, professors get paid the least amount of money for their level of schooling.
You know I'm giving people the truth which is what yourself and others involved with big education don't want and why you feel the need to vigorously defend gouging potential nursing students for thousands of dollars more when an associate's or diploma program can give them an excellent nursing education. Just like the AACN still tries to defend the Aiken study which was proven to be a fallacy and so fatally flawed that the the people involved would not defend their conclusions with a major news network. Those driving the BSN push also intentionally misled nurses into thinking states were going to take away their licenses if they didn't get a BSN. I spoke with a former speaker of the house whose wife is a nurse who said nurses do not need a BSN and there was no pending action to force nurses to get them. Besides, states can not take away a nursing license unless there was proven negligence or misconduct. But I'll give those affiliated with big education a reason to fear: through the private option as well as in other bogs, i have given the contact information of the reporter who wanted to push the story and asked if any nurses are wiling to speak out. I will get the story of the BSN and Magnet status scams in front of the public one way or another. Since you like opinions,; you should look at the opinions of students, graduates and their parents who are sick and damn tired of exorbitant student loan debts accrued so a bunch of middle-aged academic elitists can keep their cushy jobs till they retire. Again, I make no bones about it. I want to do to those driving the BSN push what they've done to diploma and associate's prepared nurses. So as Magnum TA (Terry Allen) used to say back in the 80's; "Gear up, cause I'm going to bring it to ya."
But I'll give those affiliated with big education a reason to fear: through the private option as well as in other bogs, i have given the contact information of the reporter who wanted to push the story and asked if any nurses are wiling to speak out. I will get the story of the BSN and Magnet status scams in front of the public one way or another.
You have been saying this now for many years backed by your third or fourth party anecdotes. I have yet to see any media attention to it. Conversely, I have seen the number of BSNs increase steadily over those years and the employer preference move even further in that favor.
You are battling against science and an expanding body of evidence. If you really want to make a difference then do a study that shows no differences in outcomes and the whole trend will change. Flapping your arms madly while never citing a single source including all the media members, and politicians, and administrators you keep putting words in the mouth of. Let's see their names and their official quotes.
No, I know you are not. I agree with BostonFNP. Until you produce real studies backing you opinions then you are just ranting. If BSN's are so terrible, why are hospitals spending millions of dollars trying to hire them? They have recruiting services and have NRP and EBP projects for BSN's only. Children's hospitals all over the country are looking to hire only BSN's. The VA system has VANAP in place. And most importantly, how would we have APN's without first doing a BSN? This article (based on actual research) gives you a bit more insight into the trends and still saying an ADN is okay.
No, I know you are not. I agree with BostonFNP. Until you produce really studies backing you opinions then you are just ranting. If BSN's are so terrible, why are hospitals spending millions of dollars trying to hire them? They have recruiting services and have NRP and EBP projects for BSN's only. Children's hospitals all over the country are looking to hire only BSN's. The VA system has VANAP in place. And most importantly, how would we have APN's without first doing a BSN? This article (based on actual research) gives you a bit more insight into the trends and still saying an ADN is okay.
Avengingspirit has been staring this information for THREE years...I even stated if he has the info, then SHARE.
There should be someone at least retired that may feel the need to speak out OR at least do a EBP to show evidence that ADNs have the same or more outcomes.
A lot of posters, including myself have been waiting, and so far nothing has happened where we can have this discussion.
You have been saying this now for many years backed by your third or fourth party anecdotes. I have yet to see any media attention to it. Conversely, I have seen the number of BSNs increase steadily over those years and the employer preference move even further in that favor.
You are battling against science and an expanding body of evidence. If you really want to make a difference then do a study that shows no differences in outcomes and the whole trend will change. Flapping your arms madly while never citing a single source including all the media members, and politicians, and administrators you keep putting words in the mouth of. Let's see their names and their official quotes.
I gave you sources previously which proved that the inclusion of certain data for the Aiken study was based solely on the discretion of so-called experts who were all backed by the AACN; an organization committed to BSN entry for obvious reasons. So you can go back and look that up as I won't waste time rehashing that here. Every other study you mentioned was either spun off the Aiken propaganda or utilized it as one their main references.. Employer preference I agree currently favors BSNs as they are naive enough to believe a false report supported by like-minded peers of the authors. There are few studies of the opposite opinion because the big money is made by big education trying to steer students back through their doors. The AACN has deep pockets; which they dug into to support the study at Univ of Penn. Most smaller schools and hospital based nursing programs do not have that kind of funding. Hospitals alos want more BSNs to try to attain Magnet Status which is another money-making scheme dreamed up by the ANA. They put on a dog and pony show when the ANCC reps show up then once the check from the hospital clears, they are awarded Magnet Status. Hospitals want it solely for the large government stipends. The ironic part about it is that if one sifts through all the corporate-speak, you find that the requirements for Magnet Status are the same as what it takes to pass a JACHO inspection. It then marketed to the public as a place that provides superior care. Some hospitals I'm sure try to do just that; but each should be evaluated on their own merits and on the MS flags hanging outside their doors. In Aiken's study, the hospitals that had the higher mortality rates had a higher mean patient age. When data was analyzed into this scenario, the death rates in her data equaled the same as in the general population. I never said BSNs were terrible. If one chooses that route, then good for them. But hospitals only wanting to hire BSNs is pure idiocy and anyone who supports that based on something so manipulative and unscientific is narrow-minded. What a bunch of robots you all have become.
Aiken study was based solely on the discretion of so-called experts who were all backed by the AACN; an organization committed to BSN entry for obvious reasons.
One, Aiken is not the only one to look at outcomes and not what hospitals are solely basing their decision on. And two, you have to have experts create a research study. Content validity requires the use of recognized subject matter experts to evaluate whether test items assess defined content. Importance of expert judgment in content-related validity evidence. - PubMed - NCBI
I am unsure how else you would conduct a valid research study without experts. It is not as if a history professor could create valid and reliable tools or assess mortality rates effectively. That again is the difference in education; understanding how research is conducted, why it is important, and how to apply it to practice.
You still have not answered my questions: How does one become an APN if not through the BSN process, and also, how do we advance nursing practice if we create a body of nurses without the ability to analyze or conduct research?
One, Aiken is not the only one to look at outcomes and not what hospitals are solely basing their decision on. And two, you have to have experts create a research study. Content validity requires the use of recognized subject matter experts to evaluate whether test items assess defined content. Importance of expert judgment in content-related validity evidence. - PubMed - NCBI
I am unsure how else you would conduct a valid research study without experts. It is not as if a history professor could create valid and reliable tools or assess mortality rates effectively. That again is the difference in education; understanding how research is conducted, why it is important, and how to apply it to practice.
You still have not answered my questions: How does one become an APN if not through the BSN process, and also, how do we advance nursing practice if we create a body of nurses without the ability to analyze or conduct research?
You can't use experts or anyone that makes money from anywhere or has an advanced degree. They are all shills.
I am unsure how else you would conduct a valid research study without experts. It is not as if a history professor could create valid and reliable tools or assess mortality rates effectively. That again is the difference in education; understanding how research is conducted, why it is important, and how to apply it to practice.
MSN10: we've been down this road with avengingspirit. They refuse to acknowledge any research done by Aiken, co-authored by her, done by one of her co-authors. I think they've even disparaged research that merely cites her work (as is appropriate in any proper literature review). I'm not sure they would accept any research of it isn't done by an all-ADN and diploma group of authors. Or if it's published in a peer reviewed journal, because. . .the peers are probably all too educated.
Yes, apparently the only truth is in personal opinion/experiences expressed directly from one individual to another.
A friend of mine who was in med school introduced me to the concept of educated idiots. I have never seen so many examples as I have in those affiliated with academia and politics. I believe the two are synonymous now. Some of us don't need a study to tell us not to walk blindfolded in the middle of a highway, use deductive reasoning, common sense or put 2 & 2 together. I do however believe that many in the nursing hierarchy; especially those in academia, are not as ignorant as they appear to be but will say anything to try to defend their position to drive revenue into the four year schools and try to ensure their cushy jobs until retirement with a pension. If any of you are going to tell me that the Aiken report was not created from a template for a previous study on staffing levels and mortality rates; I'll say you're lying. If you're going to say the data was not manipulated at least 133 times to make it fit on the new template; I'll tell you to your face you're lying. If you're going to tell me the data was not simply applied to hypothetical situations but with real conditions and real patients; I'll tell you you're lying. Because they did simply run hypothetical data through a regressions model to see what might happen in a hospital if it had a 10% increase of BSN nurses. Over the three years, I have given many sources, again go back and look them up. But what you haven't given is not one testimonial from a patient or doctor that has said they can tell the difference in the care provided by a diploma nurse and a BSN. All you've given is the same garbage spewed by those who have a vested financial interest in manipulating students into attending highly over-priced universities.
So don't waste my time until you can provide proof that new BSNs provide better care than new ADNs. And all you who depend on academia for your livelihood, enjoy it while it lasts because I will do whatever I can to expose the phonies that some in academia are. But I will say the teachers at the nursing school I attended were excellent and they have my utmost respect. And yes it was a three year straight-through the summer diploma program I attended after earning a four year degree in administration and finance.
For kicks I just reviewed all your posts and you have never once provided a peer reviewed source. You have several times linked to blogs and op-eds. You tried to cite another forum post several times as evidence.
You have never provided a name to any influential person you continue to quote.
Perhaps the best example of why BSNs have better outcomes is that they understand the scientific process. Take some research classes, learn to understand the scientific process, and then get back to us. So we don't keep "wasting your time" with the dozen international studies that have been consistent in their outcomes. Peddle your pseudoscience and conspiracy elsewhere.
Did you get let go from your nursing job and you blame it on the push for the BSN?
avengingspirit1
242 Posts
You know I'm giving people the truth which is what yourself and others involved with big education don't want and why you feel the need to vigorously defend gouging potential nursing students for thousands of dollars more when an associate's or diploma program can give them an excellent nursing education. Just like the AACN still tries to defend the Aiken study which was proven to be a fallacy and so fatally flawed that the the people involved would not defend their conclusions with a major news network. Those driving the BSN push also intentionally misled nurses into thinking states were going to take away their licenses if they didn't get a BSN. I spoke with a former speaker of the house whose wife is a nurse who said nurses do not need a BSN and there was no pending action to force nurses to get them. Besides, states can not take away a nursing license unless there was proven negligence or misconduct. But I'll give those affiliated with big education a reason to fear: through the private option as well as in other bogs, i have given the contact information of the reporter who wanted to push the story and asked if any nurses are wiling to speak out. I will get the story of the BSN and Magnet status scams in front of the public one way or another. Since you like opinions,; you should look at the opinions of students, graduates and their parents who are sick and damn tired of exorbitant student loan debts accrued so a bunch of middle-aged academic elitists can keep their cushy jobs till they retire. Again, I make no bones about it. I want to do to those driving the BSN push what they've done to diploma and associate's prepared nurses. So as Magnum TA (Terry Allen) used to say back in the 80's; "Gear up, cause I'm going to bring it to ya."