BSN Only Is A Wall Street Scam

Nursing Students ADN/BSN

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The push for Magnet status and BSN Only is rooted firmly in fraud. As usual, this Wall Street scam has many players and angles. To those that study propaganda and disaster capitalism; the latest from the CEO class is testament to how dumbed down the average worker has become in America.

I went to NSG school 16 years ago. The cost for a ADN at a major university, minus grants, was about 12 grand. My alma mater wants over 50 grand for me to finish my BSN. A full 90% of that BSN will be done on line. That my fellow brothers and sisters is a CEO wet dream come true. Very little staff or facility cost to eat into that profit margin.

One of reasons CEOs want BSNs is because of the student debt factor. We all know what kind of work nursing is. Short staffing is the norm since I became a nurse. Ancillary staff is always in short supply and often has a less than perfect attitude. The short term profit motive takes priority over patient care and safety today, so much so that managers don't even try to hide it or make excuses for it. We know what this leads to, another shortage. The CEOs want to the next generation of RNs deep in debt. RNs that owe 40 to 100 grand (common with the cost of education today) in student loans will think twice before leaving NSG to have kids or find work in less demanding professions. Try to unionize ?? Not too many RNs will rock the boat on any issue that bucks the bottom line. Try to improve staffing or patient care ?? My loan cost about 120 a month for 10 years, the new RNs will fight for very little thanks to the cost of school today and the CEOs know it.

Online schools are the biggest players in this scam. Online education schools can cost as much as an ivy league school, with the taxpayer footing the bill. Online schools offer many degrees to students across the country. NSG plays a major role in keeping these failed schools green with your tax dollars. Online schools are a failure across the board.

Most students that in-role will never graduate. The few students that do graduate will find their degree worthless in today's job market. The default rate on the student loans paid to these schools will make even the most jaded taxpayer want to vomit. NSGs role in all this is simple. Online schools are forced to operate under a 90/10 rule. If online schools can get just 10% of students to graduate or just 10% to find a job, the online schools can continue to get government (taxpayer) money for the other 90%. Non BSN RNs are proven students. Non BSN RNs have a track record of success in academics and will more than likely finish any online program. Non BSN RNs when they enter these programs most likely have a job and will have that job when they graduate. Are you putting this together yet ?? The push for the BSN Only is a propaganda ploy from Wall Street funded PR firms. Edward Brenays would be proud. The more non BSN RNs that attend online schools, the more students the online schools can in-role and get paid for. It is important to mention that the 90/10 rule was forced on the schools by congress because of the dismal default rate. The schools win, the Wall Street Investors win, hospital CEOs win, the non nursing students that drop out lose and the American taxpayers lose. NSG will lose as well. Workers that are trapped because of debt become slaves to the greed of the system. The greed of this system will hurt the patients we care for.

Specializes in CRNA, Finally retired.
Diploma/ADN/BSN are ALL nurses. They ALL sit for the same NCLEX as the "BSN" nurse. You ALL get the same nursing license that allows you ALL to practice nursing and care for ALL the same patients.

Some school have better clinical lab expereinces than other programs. Many of these "for profit" school that have popped up (both ADN/BSN) have dummed down programs and don't even have concurrent clinicals.

But, once a nurse has her license......we are all nurses of equal standing, it is the expereince that is lacking.

They have d-u-m-b-e d down the programs. Yes, that would be correct.

On the ADN/BSN clinical experience of new grads, it does seem that the major/top healthcare systems/facilities at least in NYC are willing to compensate for any deficiencies in that area for BSN new grads providing they meet strict hiring criteria.

NYU/Langone, NYP and others offer pretty good (from what one has heard) new graduate nurse residency programs provided the new BSN nurse has a GPA in nursing and sciences if not overall at or >3.0 (NYU requires 3.5 minimum), and so forth. IMHO the rationale seems to be rather than deal with the wide variation of clinical experiences new grads bring to the table, these places are saying we'll work with what they have got if we see there is *potential* and or something there to work with.

Ever since the trend began to move nursing education out of hospitals and into colleges/universities there has been a decent variation of clinical experience between BSN, diploma and ADN programs. However while historically BSN grads were a bit slow out of the starting gate as opposed to diploma or ADN grads, with proper and decent orientation all were pretty much even a year or so out post grad.

The fly in the ointment has become the reluctance of hospitals to invest in new grad orientation/residency programs.

Am not going to stir those old pools as the topic has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere on this forum. But suffice to say facilities know they need nurses including new graduates, so if they *must* spend what they consider scarce resources training new grads it is going to be on their terms.

Again cannot speak for the entire state much less country, but here in NYC if one is a new grad from some off the wall program, has a low GPA (

Diploma/ADN/BSN are ALL nurses. They ALL sit for the same NCLEX as the "BSN" nurse. You ALL get the same nursing license that allows you ALL to practice nursing and care for ALL the same patients.

Some school have better clinical lab expereinces than other programs. Many of these "for profit" school that have popped up (both ADN/BSN) have dummed down programs and don't even have concurrent clinicals.

But, once a nurse has her license......we are all nurses of equal standing, it is the expereince that is lacking.

Again as one has stated often, historically BSN nurse programs were not designed to produce bedside nurses, or those that remained there long. Four year grads were supposed to go into managment, admininstation, planning and so forth in addition to being a stepping stone into AP and nurse education, research and other academic roles.

However since the profession never got around to getting it's act together over a standard entry into practice, hospitals and others have by and large moved to a "nurse is a nurse is a nurse" model.

Yes, in theory any licensed RN is capable of the entire range of practice as outlined by each particular state, but increasingly healthcare systems are picking "who does what" when it comes to nursing services.

Remember it wasn't purely the push to move nursing education out of hospitals that killed off diploma programs. At least in NYC/NYS one primary reason was hospitals stopped hiring such grads in favour of college educated nurses. There is no point of churning out nurses no matter how great they are if no one will hire them. If current trends continue this is also going to come to ahead in many areas such as NYC where "BSN preferred" grads make up a bulk of the places taken by new hires.

Again as one has stated often, historically BSN nurse programs were not designed to produce bedside nurses, or those that remained there long. Four year grads were supposed to go into managment, admininstation, planning and so forth in addition to being a stepping stone into AP and nurse education, research and other academic roles.

However since the profession never got around to getting it's act together over a standard entry into practice, hospitals and others have by and large moved to a "nurse is a nurse is a nurse" model.

Yes, in theory any licensed RN is capable of the entire range of practice as outlined by each particular state, but increasingly healthcare systems are picking "who does what" when it comes to nursing services.

Remember it wasn't purely the push to move nursing education out of hospitals that killed off diploma programs. At least in NYC/NYS one primary reason was hospitals stopped hiring such grads in favour of college educated nurses. There is no point of churning out nurses no matter how great they are if no one will hire them. If current trends continue this is also going to come to ahead in many areas such as NYC where "BSN preferred" grads make up a bulk of the places taken by new hires.

The ANA has been pushing the baccalaureate as the entry-level credential for years. The ramp-up in nursing school enrollment over the past several years has combined with a poor economy and an increased emphasis on cost control and has resulted in a significant nursing oversupply in most parts of the country. Healthcare systems now use fewer nurses than ever and can be (and are) much more selective in their hiring. Since nurses are paid roughly equally regardless of education, the end result has been a proliferation of "BSN required" postings. The ANA is slowly realizing their goal, with others unwittingly doing the heavy lifting for them.

There is actually a very good reason to continue to turn out nurses when the market is already saturated and nursing employment is not increasing: It puts significant downward pressure on wages and benefits. While I don't believe that the current nursing glut is being engineered by greedy plutocrats, I do believe that the large health care corporations are only too happy to take advantage of the situation. My bet is that with the "BSN only" dream close to realization, you will soon see pay freezes, benefit reductions and in some parts of the country, even salary rollbacks. My guess is that this already happening but I don't have the date to back up the assertion - yet.

As to the diploma programs, I would take issue with the statement that they have been "killed off", at least in my part of the world. Our metro area is the fifth most populous and home to one of highest concentrations of hospitals, health research facilities and pharmaceutical companies in the country. Out of 23 total nursing programs, 5 are diploma programs and they turn out over 12% of the new nursing grads each year. The number of diploma programs has shrunk somewhat over the years, but those that remain show no signs of ever getting killed off, the ANA be damned.

As to the diploma programs, I would take issue with the statement that they have been "killed off", at least in my part of the world. Our metro area is the fifth most populous and home to one of highest concentrations of hospitals, health research facilities and pharmaceutical companies in the country. Out of 23 total nursing programs, 5 are diploma programs and they turn out over 12% of the new nursing grads each year. The number of diploma programs has shrunk somewhat over the years, but those that remain show no signs of ever getting killed off, the ANA be damned.

Please note one was referring to one's own local area (NYC/NYS) where there is only one diploma program in the entire state. The remaining hospital based programs have all become ADN or are extinct.

When one applied to the College of Mount Saint Vincent for information on their nursing program became involved in a discussion with whomever took the call. Turns out the woman had worked at the excellent but now closed Saint Vinny's school in The Village. Asked if the two programs were related as one remebered at some point students from the Manhattan school went up to Riverdale to take college level courses, and the prompt reply was "no" and that the program closed because "no one would hire them (diploma) nurses".

Am sure other factors went into it as well, but Saint Vincent's managed to keep their Queen's and Staten Island programs running right until the bankruptcy. However IIRC both were ADN and not diploma.

As for other states PA seems to have the most remaining diploma programs and IIRC plans are underway to reactivate/bring back one or two more.

A bit off topic here, but how are diploma programs funded? By the hospital? That seems like it'd be a huge expense for them.

I went to a diploma program and we paid tuition. It is part of a Catholic healthcare system and like OP stated- showns not sign of being closedand still turns out top notch nursing grads. Not now and never did back in the 60's, 70's, 80's, graduate more that 20 grads per year.

A bit off topic here, but how are diploma programs funded? By the hospital? That seems like it'd be a huge expense for them.

It is/was a huge expense for hospitals to run their own nursing programs, but several factors mitigated those costs.

1. Hospitals got nurses that were trained/educated the way they wished and knew the particular facility forwards and backwards upon graduation. This meant an almost seamless transition from graduate nurse to RN for those who were hired by their school's hospital.

2. Until the practice was stopped hospitals using the "Nightingale" system of nursing education basically got free labour by using student nurses. In some instances entire floors/wards would be staffed with mainly student's providing care with RNs acting as supervisors/administrators.

3. The US Federal government provides various pots of funds for nursing education *if* the program meets certain criteria. Basically the school must be under total control of the hospital from staff to administration, in short the old hospital diploma programs. This is not surprising since the scheme came about during the "nursing shortages" of around the 1940's due to WWII. Various state and local governments also provided funding or ways to fund hospital based schools of nursing.

4. Hospitals had all sorts of ways of billing both patients and insurance companies that paid for nursing care provided by students and or fund affiliated schools of nursing, either directly or indirectly,

And so on and so forth.

It is worth noting that initially many hospitals were dead against the movement of nursing education from diploma schools to colleges/universities. They didn't think too highly of the newly created ADN nurses, and thought the savings from having well trained diploma grads whom usually had vast clinical experience while at school thus not requiring much in the way of orientation better than ADN/BSN nurses.However as time went on places began warming to college educated nurses in particular ADN grads whom facilities found with often not that much seasoning made good nurses. This allowed them to shut down their nursing programs and remove the associated costs.

IIRC at one time the United States had over 3,000 (or was it 300,000?) hospital based diploma nursing programs. Most every single hospital in this country at one time or another had a school of nursing.

Here in NYC their names are legendary:

Besides Saint Vinny's you had: Flower & Fifth, Mount Sinai, Lenox Hill, Bellevue (merged with Hunter College)

Here is link to the history of Cornell/New York Hospital school of nursing that spells out pretty much how some things played out.

Cornell School of Nursing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
It is worth noting that initially many hospitals were dead against the movement of nursing education from diploma schools to colleges/universities. They didn't think too highly of the newly created ADN nurses, and thought the savings from having well trained diploma grads whom usually had vast clinical experience while at school thus not requiring much in the way of orientation better than ADN/BSN nurses.However as time went on places began warming to college educated nurses in particular ADN grads whom facilities found with often not that much seasoning made good nurses. This allowed them to shut down their nursing programs and remove the associated costs.

IIRC at one time the United States had over 3,000 (or was it 300,000?) hospital based diploma nursing programs. Most every single hospital in this country at one time or another had a school of nursing.

So was the rap against diploma schools derived from the belief that there wasn't enough hard science in the diploma programs? They were seen as a demeaning source of free labor? I would completely understand it if the rationale was something along the lines of an attempt to be seen as a stand alone profession, if it weren't for the fact that so many medical schools are associated with hospitals.

There are many times it strikes when people are in the thick of the battle royale on the ADN vs BSN front - what we really need is to strike a balance and obviate the necessity for hospitals to finish educating new nurses via long and expensive orientations . .I know! Residencies! For about a year following two years of core academics! Oh, wait. Didn't we have something like that back in the day?

So was the rap against diploma schools derived from the belief that there wasn't enough hard science in the diploma programs? They were seen as a demeaning source of free labor? I would completely understand it if the rationale was something along the lines of an attempt to be seen as a stand alone profession, if it weren't for the fact that so many medical schools are associated with hospitals.

There are many times it strikes when people are in the thick of the battle royale on the ADN vs BSN front - what we really need is to strike a balance and obviate the necessity for hospitals to finish educating new nurses via long and expensive orientations . .I know! Residencies! For about a year following two years of core academics! Oh, wait. Didn't we have something like that back in the day?

Ever since Florence Nightingale moved the education of nurses into hospitals the latter ran roughshod over the former. Then as pretty much now facilities see nurses as a labour cost to be used and managed as such. This applies up to and including the education of nurses that may not be or remain on their staff.

Once the apprenticeship method of training/educating nurses was attacked and mainly stamped out by *you know who* hospitals had to look for economic and other reasons to justify running a nursing program especially as costs rose and finances got tight.

As for "nurse residencies" remember unlike their medical counterpart hospitals aren't reimbursed nor make any money from services provided by new graduate nurses other than the same bed/board rates federal/local governments pay along with private insurers.

To be fair hospitals/facilities have no idea what they are getting from a recent nursing school grad. While state BONs do lay down some criteria for nursing programs there is quite a range out there.

Arching The Flood: How To Bridge The Gap Between Nursing Schools And Hospitals

So was the rap against diploma schools derived from the belief that there wasn't enough hard science in the diploma programs? They were seen as a demeaning source of free labor? I would completely understand it if the rationale was something along the lines of an attempt to be seen as a stand alone profession, if it weren't for the fact that so many medical schools are associated with hospitals.

There are many times it strikes when people are in the thick of the battle royale on the ADN vs BSN front - what we really need is to strike a balance and obviate the necessity for hospitals to finish educating new nurses via long and expensive orientations . .I know! Residencies! For about a year following two years of core academics! Oh, wait. Didn't we have something like that back in the day?

For the record many hospital diploma programs had more hard sciences than most current ADN schools offer. But of course am sure you knew that. *LOL*

Going back to the 1930's and or 1940's even Catholic nursing programs sent students to local colleges for chemistry (general and organic IIRC), and microbiology if not the lesser bacteriology.

It is entirely possible to design a BSN program with as much clinical content as the diploma schools of old, however because of gen ed and other non-nursing course requirements the nursing part of the program would have to be longer than the current usual two years.

The best way to do this would be to turn a BSN program into a "diploma" in that one applies to both the college/university and the nursing program at the same time. Once accepted freshman year could be "pre" and or introduction to nursing classes with formal clinical courses beginning in the second and running for the next three years. Time off could be limited to brief periods around the winter and spring holidays, and partial summer attendence would be required.

You could also take a page from the old Cornell/New York Hospital BSN program requiring much of the science and other pre-reqs/gen ed courses be taken before applying.

Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.

Thanks for your replies! (I knew you'd be a fountain of info on the subject). And, I admit to a secret longing to live in one of those nurse dorms. Perhaps I was influenced by an old Barbara Stanwyck movie called "Night Nurse", lol.

Once the apprenticeship method of training/educating nurses was attacked and mainly stamped out by *you know who* hospitals had to look for economic and other reasons to justify running a nursing program especially as costs rose and finances got tight.

I confess to not knowing exactly who, but have a fair idea - because they are still at it . . .

For the record many hospital diploma programs had more hard sciences than most current ADN schools offer. But of course am sure you knew that. *LOL*

As my instructors were often graduates of diploma schools, they tended to be quite miffed at the reputation their schools had of turning out a bunch of fluffy-heads or "handmaidens". Or they were apologetic about their education, which made me sad. I've had an interest in the topic since that time.

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