Radonda Vaught Trial

[tnbutterfly - Mary]

"Fourteen Nashvillians were chosen Monday, March 21, 2022 to sit as a jury in the case of RaDonda Vaught, a former Vanderbilt University Medical Center nurse charged in the death of a patient. She faces charges of reckless homicide and impaired adult abuse in the 2017 death of Charlene Murphey."

For more on this story, see

Jury chosen in homicide trial of ex-Vanderbilt nurse RaDonda Vaught after fatal drug error

RaDonda Vaught’s Arraignment - Guilty or Not of Reckless Homicide and Patient Abuse?

Tennessee Nurse RaDonda Vaught - Legal Perspectives of Fatal Medication Error

What do you think the verdict should/will be?

[klone, MSN, RN]

1 hour ago, MaxAttack said:

Thanks for this. I had read through some of the court documents but this filled in some of the gaps.

Watching the second BON hearing is also very eye-opening. 

[MunoRN, RN]

23 hours ago, klone said:

I think what they're disagreeing with is your assertion that they/we get joy/delight out of the verdict.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that many posters found her behavior at least a little appalling, I mean why wouldn't you?  And as a result were advocating for her to face criminal charges.  I don't agree that seeing her face criminal charges outweighs the impact that has on the safety of every other patient, but at least it's a reason.  If there isn't really any reason than that's even more disheartening.

[MunoRN, RN]

23 hours ago, Wuzzie said:

Muno, I really hate when you do this and you’ve done it before. I never said I disagreed with anything to do with patient safety. I disagree with your characterization of me as a torch and pitchfork bearing villager out for blood and I disagree that any system bears more responsibility for RV’s actions than she does. I like discussing things with you but I do not like when you put words in my mouth and resort to straw man arguments as a means to discredit my viewpoint. No matter how many safety measures we put in place someone will always, always find a way around them until we have everything so locked down we can’t even function. 

I'm not clear on what words I've put in your mouth or what "strawman" arguments I've been using against you, but it's not intentional if I have, my bad.

What I've been disputing is that these criminal charges aren't likely to harm patient safety.  Or that there isn't really much benefit to systemic safety measures and the premise of a 'Just Culture'.  I'm not sure how else to interpret the bolded statements above.

[MunoRN, RN]

23 hours ago, sistrmoon said:

I don’t disagree with any of the systems changes they suggest in the sidebar but the actual article read like an opinion piece glommed together with some of the weak arguments I keep seeing on facebook. But the family didn’t want her prosecuted! But she’s a victim of the system! She’s likeable and there are a bunch of gofundmes in her support! Well, now I’m convinced. 

Their focus is on medication and systems safety. That is their expertise. I think they could have focused on that without wholesale support of someone who did not make a Med error, but exhibited negligent carelessness over and over, long after the Med was pulled from the ADC. 

Those systemic safety issues rely on open reporting of errors and near misses, as does mitigating immediate harm to a patient following an error. 

Their point is if you support criminalizing errors, keep in mind the precedent of these charges aren't limited to as severe of cases as this, then you don't really support systemic safety measures and having multi-tiered patient safety, it can't be both.

And while I find many of the pro-Radonda discourse annoying as well, I can't justify having to explain to a patient or their family that the otherwise avoidable harm that came to them was worth it because 'those facebook posts were just so annoying.'  

[klone, MSN, RN]

2 hours ago, MunoRN said:

I don't think it's a stretch to say that many posters found her behavior at least a little appalling, I mean why wouldn't you?  And as a result were advocating for her to face criminal charges.  I don't agree that seeing her face criminal charges outweighs the impact that has on the safety of every other patient, but at least it's a reason.  If there isn't really any reason than that's even more disheartening.

Are you being intentionally obtuse? Wanting her to be convicted is not the same as getting joy/delight/pleasure from it. 
 

I watched her entire BON hearing. I sincerely feel badly for her. I would not be sad if she did not serve any Prison time. But I still feel like Justice was served by her conviction. That is not the same thing as getting joy from her situation. 

[sistrmoon, BSN, RN]

2 hours ago, MunoRN said:

Those systemic safety issues rely on open reporting of errors and near misses, as does mitigating immediate harm to a patient following an error. 

Their point is if you support criminalizing errors, keep in mind the precedent of these charges aren't limited to as severe of cases as this, then you don't really support systemic safety measures and having multi-tiered patient safety, it can't be both.

And while I find many of the pro-Radonda discourse annoying as well, I can't justify having to explain to a patient or their family that the otherwise avoidable harm that came to them was worth it because 'those facebook posts were just so annoying.'  

The 2 large hospitals I worked at in 15 years did not support non-punitive error reporting either. Where are these utopian places with Just Culture? If you made an anonymous incident report, they would hunt you down and asked if you made it. If you made an incident report, you were blamed in some way even if it wasn’t your error. I don’t see this having a chilling effect on error reporting, because it was already chilled.
 

And I think you can absolutely deliver consequences for a grossly egregious act, still seek systems changes, and there won’t be a cascade. There have already been cases before this one.

Hospitals are monoliths, and while I helped successfully bring a union into the last one, it took 3.5 years to get a contract, and it was a shadow of what minimal improvements we asked for. Hospitals will fight change every step of the way. For the most part, they don’t care for their staff or even their patients. It’s all lip service. I’ve seen absolute atrocities in the last 2 years. The only time I’ve seen them change is when the slow moving agencies actually come in with teeth, which doesn’t happen often. Nurses cannot rely on them changing and improving. They must be responsible for their own practice. 

[mtmkjr, BSN]

Based on what I've been seeing on social media I suppose there is some truth to the concern about reduced reporting.  Sadly I say.

But that doesn't mean she should not have been charged.

Maybe that's offset by the wake up call to nurses - lives saved as nurses everywhere give that extra bit of attention as they administer meds.  At least for a time.....

[JKL33]

On 3/30/2022 at 6:16 PM, MunoRN said:

 

I'm open to why you disagree that this doesn't impair patient safety going forward.  But if you're not even going to try to disprove the position of the Institute for Safe Medication Practice (ISMP) then I'm not sure what other possible explanations there are for your positions.  

I agree with part of the sentiment in that ISMP statement insofar as the override issue is concerned.  Awhile back on another thread I brought up that I didn't appreciate the focus on the override as some big proof of recklessness and I was told that it was mostly the press who focused on that, not anybody who mattered. I didn't remember it that way. It sure seemed like the override was held out as proof of her imprudent actions. Meanwhile we all use it practically every day and it wouldn't surprise me if a large percentage of us have been directed to use override because of deficient EMR functionality, poor EMR launches (where somehow the wheel needs to be reinvented every.single.time).

I do think her actions were reckless in lay person terms and in nursing terms. As far as the legal aspect of the word goes, I have no pitchfork. I have no need or secret desire for her suffering or being imprisoned. I do think that the loss of license is appropriate.

I will speak for myself, some of my continued participation which may seem like I'm really enjoying her misfortune is not that at all but rather a desire to be a counterpoint to all of the statements of support where people are just excusing her without even having read the reports...or practiced in acute care....or whatever. Plenty of posts and statements implying she was floating and was completely unfamiliar with all the surroundings, or posts making a wide variety of inappropriate excuses eg "maybe she wasn't familiar with Versed..." or people not understanding that there are going to be places in the hospital where nurses need to be able to rapidly access NMBs. So we hear the same outrage over and over and over again, eg "WHY IS A PARALYTIC IN THE PYXIS!!!!"

I have pretty much repeatedly stated in various ways that I would much rather have the institution (or the people running the show there) in jail than RV.

LibraSun wrote on another thread (or earlier on this thread) that nurses are so beat down right now and just really struggling and may be tempted to want to sort of use this case to try to bolster our cause against all the mistreatment. I do think that phenomenon is in play. And I just personally don't think this is the right case.

[JKL33]

On 3/30/2022 at 8:21 PM, Googlenurse said:

Wow, so everyone has time to look up an unfamiliar medication before or during med passes? 
 

Try doing that in a long term care facility with 45 patients; you will never last!

OH WELL!!

Leave places like that in their misery then and find a place where they don't expect you to sacrifice your license that way.

Holy heck, yes. I cannot recall giving a medication that I didn't even know the basics.

And...@Muno: Example above! Has nothing to do with anything and is a very poor argument.

[Wuzzie]

https://fox17.com/newsletter-daily/family-of-victim-killed-after-former-nurse-issued-paralyzing-drug-speaks-out-to-backlash

My guess is after they heard the entire story, instead of the redacted version being told on social media, they became rightfully angry.  I feel so bad for them. 

[juliemg, MSN]

On 3/25/2022 at 6:56 PM, guest1168940 said:

Cannot believe these comments about her, there was no intent even if she was grossly negligent. What about all the docs mistakes are you kidding me 

You are correct there was no intent. But she bypassed several safety measures. 1. She overrode the med only put in two letters to search VE, grabbed the first she saw. 2. it was not in the "same form" as she was used to powder vs liquid. 3. ignored the big red warning it is a paralytic. 3. Ignored the very basis of med administration, the 5 Rights!  gave a sedative and then just walked away? who does that? I believe there was more but that is just off the top of my head. She read the directions on how to re-constitute and didn't notice it was a different drug.  

[Orca, ADN, ASN, RN]

On 3/30/2022 at 6:50 AM, Googlenurse said:

Does anyone know if Radonda had malpractice insurance?

I’m just wondering if the charges would have been reduced or if the case would have even made it this far?

Malpractice is a civil charge, with a monetary award if the defendant is found to have engaged in it. The presence of insurance would have no effect on any criminal charge.