"She will not die. She does not have that permission from me."

[pockunit, ADN, RN]

Did anyone else have a problem with this quote from the neurologist about Rep. Giffords?

YOU DON'T GET TO GIVE PERMISSION.

I get that he was using levity in a very dark situation. But it's representative of a general school of thought that very likely helps lead to overtreatment in futile situations.

But I may be crabby.

[heron, ASN, RN]

There were other parts of his interviews when he spoke of being humbled and of the imponderables of the healing process.

I think he was expressing his intention to do his very best for her.

IMHO, dark humor, much like we see on this board.

[pockunit, ADN, RN]

I guess my problem with it is that it feeds into a general perception about medicine and dying, and how docs are somehow in charge of life and death.

It was a bad pull quote for the news stations to use, I think.

[TonyaM73, ASN, RN]

I don't really like that quote either. So many pts think the nurses and doctors have full control of the way their illness will go. If it doesn't go well.....it is the doctor's or nurse's fault. This quote just kind of feeds into that thought process.

[BluegrassRN]

I don't have a problem with the quote at all. It reflects a little dark humor, a tongue-in-cheekiness regarding physicians' God-complexes, and the (I assume) heartfelt message that he will bust his a$$ doing everything possible to help her recover. Which, if my 40 year old husband was shot in the head, I would want to hear from the doc, too.

As a nurse, if someone asks me if they are going to die, I will say something like "Not on my shift. I *do not* allow that sort of thing." if chances are very slim they are going to die. For example, upon admission we ask every patient if they would like to see the chaplain, and if they have a living will or DPOA. Many times this rattles people, especially younger folks, and sometimes they'll ask me then "Why do I need a chaplain? Am I going to die?" No, people, I'm not talking about last rites, I'm talking a social call for a chat and a blessing. If death is even a fairly remote consideration, I am of course not going to make such a statement. So when I hear docs and other health care providers make such a statement, to me personally it is one of hope, encouragement, confidence that the outlook is very positive, and a little levity.

[klone, MSN, RN]

I agree with Bluegrass. I don't have a problem with the statement.

[leslie :-D]

i don't have a problem at all with the statement.

and i don't believe he was being "humorous".

in hospice, we OFTEN ask the families, to "give permission" to die, to the pt.

often, pts linger and there are reasons for them doing so.

one of these reasons, is r/t an inability to let go...to die, fearing leaving their beloveds behind.

and so, when we gently encourage loved ones to "give permission....that i'll be ok, i'll miss you, but will see you at another time"...we see that only then, the pts can finally let go.

that said, i do believe that the dr. was specifically telling her she cannot die...

that she's a viable, 40yo woman who has a chance...so don't give up.

very reasonable AND smart move, imo.

leslie

[pockunit, ADN, RN]

i don't have a problem at all with the statement.

and i don't believe he was being "humorous".

in hospice, we OFTEN ask the families, to "give permission" to die, to the pt.

often, pts linger and there are reasons for them doing so.

one of these reasons, is r/t an inability to let go...to die, fearing leaving their beloveds behind.

and so, when we gently encourage loved ones to "give permission....that i'll be ok, i'll miss you, but will see you at another time"...we see that only then, the pts can finally let go.

that said, i do believe that the dr. was specifically telling her she cannot die...

that she's a viable, 40yo woman who has a chance...so don't give up.

very reasonable AND smart move, imo.

leslie

I see a HUGE difference between friends and family "giving permission" to an actively dying person and a doc saying that their patient isn't going to die because they won't allow it.

I also think there is a difference between telling a pt directly, "I'm not giving up on you," and telling the world that you won't allow it. Sure, there semantics come into it, but there's also the whole attitude it underscores, and that's what bothers me.

If someone I loved was in hospice and I needed to give them permission to go, you'd best believe I'd give it. I see that as a completely different scenario, though.

[leslie :-D]

If someone I loved was in hospice and I needed to give them permission to go, you'd best believe I'd give it. I see that as a completely different scenario, though.

i'm glad you would.

there are loved ones who can't/won't....and the pts linger and linger....and it's not as peaceful as it could have been.

you'd be surprised to learn the power of words and how they impact the psyche of a person...dying or otherwise.

we'll just agree to disagree.

leslie

[pockunit, ADN, RN]

I don't think we disagree about speaking to the patients at all. I just don't like the doc perpetuating the view of docs as in charge of life and death to the public.

He should absolutely tell HER that he's not going to let her die. He should speak to her directly and say he's not going to let her die. That gives her a cheering section, as it were, and the idea that he thinks she is going to make it. I understand the power of words.

But for him to tell the public that it's his decision? *that's* my problem.

[nohika]

I don't think we disagree about speaking to the patients at all. I just don't like the doc perpetuating the view of docs as in charge of life and death to the public.

He should absolutely tell HER that he's not going to let her die. He should speak to her directly and say he's not going to let her die. That gives her a cheering section, as it were, and the idea that he thinks she is going to make it. I understand the power of words.

But for him to tell the public that it's his decision? *that's* my problem.

Well, I think part of it is he doesn't CHOOSE what the newspapers use from his quotes. It's hard to accurately judge it without knowing the tone - dead-serious, a touch humorous, or whatever.

I personally think it's humor, in a way - she's got a chance so I'll give her my all kind of thing.

Then again, I've become more aware of how the public understands things (...not at all), so...who knows.

[ntjstanrs]

I don't mind the quote but I do think the Doc needs to keep in mind his audience. Not everyone out there is very sharp or dark humored, so not everyone gets it. Have you ever had the situation where the Doc explains something then walks out of the room and the blank stare on the family or patients face leads you to ask " do you have more questions" or "can I clarify something for you". They forget who they are talking to and what kind of news they are delivering. Maybe because we do it everyday. We found it inspiring but general public then walk down the road of medical personnel have control over these things.