As an offshoot to the News article about nursing education, an opinion was brought to the board that LPNs are not adequately prepared to care for patients, and that their education is not strenuous like an RN program is. Having been in the field for awhile, what is your opinion on the differences between LPNs and RNs, other than the legally different aspects (LPNs cannot do initial assessments or IVs in my state for instance)
I'm not looking to start trouble, but rather discuss the topic in an area other than an unrelated thread.
Differences in LPNs vs RNs (educationally, functionally, intellectually)
Best way to combat any possible negatives of the above
Advice for an LPN student (who is too far through her program to just throw it out and start over in an RN program - already applied for an LPN to RN program starting Jan 2010)
Should I really expect to run into attitudes in the workplace about my not being worthwhile as an employee and a care provider because I chose the path that I have? How do you handle it if you do?
There is a local small rural hospital that pays incredibly well for LPNs right out of school and who has been trying very hard to recruit us during clinicals... am I going to be inequipped to care for patients there because of my education? I would never want to get into a situation where patient care was compromised because my education was lacking somehow...
Specializes in Med/Surge, Geriatrics(LTC), Pediatricts,.
From the consensus I'm gathering here, all of us, are for the most part, in agreement that LPN's should not be done away with. I agree, the best training is in the Practical Nurse training. And my 20+ years experience in nursing is my best educator.
The next thing is, what do we as a body of Nurses, both RN and LPN alike do about this? Is there anyway we can loby someone. What? (rhetoricaly asking) A start is as we who are present LPN's advance to RN, not fall into the catagory of being conseited toward our LPN counterparts. Remember our days as LPN's and value the training LPN's have. On the same note, new nurses, just starting out who have the "I'm better than you" attitude need to pull in their horns, and realize the wealth of knowlege and experience coming from both the older RN's and LPN's.
One experience I didn't tell when I responded to this thread is an experience I had while working in a LTC facility: At this LTC facility, it was part of my job to orient new Nurses to the routine, and floor. Both LPN's as well as RN's. The RN's after finishing with my orientation for the med pass, and treatments, were then oriented by the RN for the managerial aspects of the job. I had many new Nurses who were new LPN's going for their RN, give me attitude, saying comments like: "I don't need to pay much attention to what you have to say, next week I'll get my orientation from the RN, the REAL NURSE, and won't have to listen to what ever you have to say." or "My instructor told me I don't have to listen to you, a mere LPN, I'll be an RN soon and will be telling YOU what to do!" When a new hire would tell me comments like this, I would stop my orientation on that person, ask them if my years of experience meant anything, and turn their orientation over to the RN, and when they went out on the floor for their first med pass on their own. Sadly they didn't know what to do or how to do it, and stumbled with a hectic shift because they didn't know how to budget their time, or grumbled at the meanial tasks they had to do on the shift complaining an LPN should be there to do "it." I also have a long standing joke of sorts, like the LVN from TX, a Dr once refered to me as: "Oh! You are an LPN, a Little Pretend Nurse!" That was 19 years ago when that happened, honestly it stung, hurt to the core. But since, that Dr, who at the time was a new Dr, has grown to respect the value of a Practical Nurse as much as the RN.
I know the trend now is to get rid of LPN's, at least in hospital settings. I think this is a big mistake. I was an LVN before I got my RN. I know first hand that there are some really bad LPN's. But what they don't look at is there are a large number of really good LPN's. Everyone looks at the one LPN who messes up and label all LPN's as incompetent.
Working as an RN and LPN, I found that RN's are more incompetent. All of the major errors (medication, judgement, patient care) I have seen were from RN's not LPN's. I've know of an RN turning off the tele alarms, the pt died and she was charged with manslaughter. I have know some and have heard of many RN's who steal and abuse narcs. I hardly ever hear of a major issue associated with a LPN. Why isn't the RN proffession getting a bad reputation?
Granted, there are mostlikely instances were LPN's are incompetent. As with any profession or vocation, there will always be a loser. It is the person's integrety that will make a good nurse. Nursing schools only give knowledge not wisdom. Anyone can go to nursing school (RN or LPN), but not everyone will be a good nurse.
a person who cares for the sick or infirm ; specifically : a licensed health-care professional who practices independently or is supervised by a physician, surgeon, or dentist and who is skilled in promoting and maintaining health:nurse:
Like many here when starting to read this post my ire was up, hackles raised, and the red flag came out. I was thinking how dare someone say something like this, but like others i kept reading and want to thank all of those who have worked with LPN/LVN's and liked doing so.
I have been a LPN for 13 years and have worked in many area's in one state due to the scope of practice I was able to do the IVP"S and hang blood. I was just not able to do the inital assessment ( which we did alot of the times and the RN signed behind us.) We were taught how to do an IV by OJT even hung Kt. Now I am in a different state and its altogther different. You have to go to classes to be able to do the IV"S ( which BTW isnt readily available) so I went to LTC and home health but sadly miss my hospital days.
Now I am in school to become a RN, the first thing I was told is that I dont have to take as many classes due to my LPN training but I was to take my LPN hat off as I come to class and on clinincal rounds I am just a student. Anyone that is bridging oufgt to know thats a hard thing to do, but do it we have to. Yes as a RN I will make more pay, be able to do IVP, chemo. and hang blood but also do mounds of paperwork that I wasnt having to do before. when I finish I will gladly have a LPn at my side if able. no matter what I will be the best nurse I can be and I will always remember what I have had to do along the way to get here. Kudo's to all the LPN/LVN's out there dont ever let anyone think your less than a nurse, and hold your head up high.
I dont think they should.but do u guys think with all the new grad rns that something will change? i have seen things go both ways: i have seen ads that wanted rns now state lpn only, but im guessing thats due to the economy? also i have seen rns only ads also,and this was for ltc. Im guessing with the economy its going to go either way. For all who were lpns first,(i was also are u still going to hold onto your lpn license?(keep it active}
Like many here when starting to read this post my ire was up, hackles raised, and the red flag came out. I was thinking how dare someone say something like this, but like others i kept reading and want to thank all of those who have worked with LPN/LVN's and liked doing so.
I have been a LPN for 13 years and have worked in many area's in one state due to the scope of practice I was able to do the IVP"S and hang blood. I was just not able to do the inital assessment ( which we did alot of the times and the RN signed behind us.) We were taught how to do an IV by OJT even hung Kt. Now I am in a different state and its altogther different. You have to go to classes to be able to do the IV"S ( which BTW isnt readily available) so I went to LTC and home health but sadly miss my hospital days.
Now I am in school to become a RN, the first thing I was told is that I dont have to take as many classes due to my LPN training but I was to take my LPN hat off as I come to class and on clinincal rounds I am just a student. Anyone that is bridging oufgt to know thats a hard thing to do, but do it we have to. Yes as a RN I will make more pay, be able to do IVP, chemo. and hang blood but also do mounds of paperwork that I wasnt having to do before. when I finish I will gladly have a LPn at my side if able. no matter what I will be the best nurse I can be and I will always remember what I have had to do along the way to get here. Kudo's to all the LPN/LVN's out there dont ever let anyone think your less than a nurse, and hold your head up high.
As i have a thread about more pay, I now know from what others have posted that u may not make more. I thought so that by getting the rn i would make more but apparently not the case. A lot of employers when i was doing interviews either reduced the time i was an lpn{i was an lpn for 4 years so they reduced it to 2 years of rn experience} or gave me no credit at all and thus i had to start as a new grad rn. according to my professors at the time they dont have to acknowledge your lpn experience.
As i have a thread about more pay, I now know from what others have posted that u may not make more. I thought so that by getting the rn i would make more but apparently not the case. A lot of employers when i was doing interviews either reduced the time i was an lpn{i was an lpn for 4 years so they reduced it to 2 years of rn experience} or gave me no credit at all and thus i had to start as a new grad rn. according to my professors at the time they dont have to acknowledge your lpn experience.
It depends on the facility. I applied to 4 facilities. 2 of them gave credit for LPN experience. The hospital I ended of going to will give me $4/hr for my LPN experience and that is on top of the higher RN wage. But the LTC facility I work at now give no credit. This makes no sense to me. I realize I still have alot to learn, but there is a lot I don't need to learn. In most of the hospitals, RNs only made $2/hr than LPNs right out of school.
spburnell, I think once the economy picks up and the shortage comes back, you will see the LPNs coming back into the hospital setting. And I've seen just as many bad RNs and LPNs. , but I work in LTC and see a lot more LPNs. ITA with you...bad is bad, no matter what level.
Specializes in Med/Surge, Geriatrics(LTC), Pediatricts,.
So, fellow Nurses, LPN and RN alike, we have the general concensus that LPN's are a greatly valued asset to any healthcare setting. The question now is, not to ponder the fate of the LPN position, but rather to get active on securing the fate of the LPN position. There has never been a quesiton about the fate of the RN position, it was a given that RN's would always have a position no matter what format the job is, LTC, Hospital, Dr. office, no matter. Most of us have been fortunate enough to end up in a positive light as far as our LPN goes, meaning we have postions where we are respected and accepted for our hard work. It seems this "scare" if you will, comes from administrators and those who are in management, and have no idea what it's like to work the hands on part of the healthcare team.
So, do we just hackle over this subject, or do we do something about it? If we just hackle it over, then pass the teapot, my cup is empty, and where are the crumpets? If we are going to "do" something about this, what do we do, where do we go, whom do we contact? How do we get organized to intelegently secure the fate of LPN's so no one has to spend time wondering or worried about that fate, and can put all efforts into being a good LPN, and take care of our charges. And thus, a nurse who chooses to stay at the LPN level can feel secure in that, and not feel pressured into going for their RN just to save their job, or to have respect in the healthcare field.
Specializes in psychiatric, UR analyst, fraud, DME,MedB.
good call ! I think LPN's position should be secured, considering that they have a place under the sun. what we need to do to lock this once and for all is a good thing to bring up. Look, not all EMT's go to medical school , and yet without EMT's we are in trouble. the problem w/ our present society is we are so fragmented and divided, and looks for the "title" instead of the need.
If I am an employer, running , let us say an LTC , I would need LPN as well as an RN ....both have their own use and importance in skills and satisfies regulatory rules , as well as cost effective. In LTC there are less RN's in comparison to LVN's. Why? an LVN can do a lot and cheaper than RN , right ? and yet depending in what type of LTC you have will dictate the type of nurses you need . one have a choice to stay in LVN or continue -----that is their own personal call. You can never do away w/ LPN'S, same as you can never do away w/ EMT's .....try paying a medical doctor doing the job of an EMT?????
I got to a reply on pg 1 that said we lpns are useless, ummmmmm to that poster I would love for you to say that to my coworkers because you'd be eaten alive and spit out. We do everything the RNs do where I work minus their computer stuff we do full assessments wounds iv's piccs potracaths all sorts of tubes ton etc the list goes on. Let's see am rn come and do our load 30 pts each most are skilled with tubes etc. They'd run like hell. Hmmm maybe that's why we only have rns that do mgmt and a day charge rn at my place. That kind of thinking makes me sick!!!
Specializes in Med/Surge, Geriatrics(LTC), Pediatricts,.
Hip Hip Horrah! We have lots of folks talking, and agreeing on this subject. Now we have to get organized and secure the future of LPN's.
And I can tell you, a Medical Dr. in the back of an Ambulance is totaly lost! They are far and very few between when there is a Dr who is an EMT as well! Go to any small town USA, and you'll see many LPN's and RN's who are also EMT's. No different in my town, I'm one of those two hatters.
I'm going to be completely honest here, I don't intend on insulting anyone but if I do apologies in advance.
I personally can't understand for the life of me why someone would choose to be an Enrolled Nurse given the pay difference (An EN is the Aussie equivalent to LPN their diploma is taken over 18 months). I'm not saying here that EN's are incompetent, far from it. I have worked alongside many EN's who were fantastic with such a high level of skills, knowledge and ability.
Anyway the reason I'm saying here is that I don't understand why someone would choose to do it is because according to our public sector award, an Enrolled Nurse with a Diploma who has been nursing for 7 years (we go up pay increments each year) gets paid 24. 79 per hour. A brand new RN grad gets paid exactly the same per hour. On the wards apart from giving IV meds, transfusions, administering narcs you still do the same job, beds, obs, documentation, feeding, ADLS. I have worked with EN's who are allowed to pass oral and SC meds as well.
To any EN's reading my post I ask do you think it's fair that the GNP nurse who has just graduated (and unless they have been an EN previously is going to have to be spoon fed for the first few months) is getting paid the same as a veteran EN? This is completely unfair IMHO. Of course you can do further education by completing an advanced diploma over 12 months, not sure if you get any extra money from doing this. But then if you add up the 18 months to become an EN, plus 12 for the advanced diploma...2.5 years....why not just become an RN over 3 years and have more career opportunity, more pay.
Now off topic thankfully we just have RN's here. No ADN, BSN, No MSN (though you can do a masters course to be an NP). Your USA three tiered RN system just sounds confusing. All RN's are educated the same, three year degree. Then you can go on and become a mental health nurse, midwife after doing the RN degree.
, but I work in LTC and see a lot more LPNs. ITA with you...bad is bad, no matter what level.
one have a choice to stay in LVN or continue -----that is their own personal call. You can never do away w/ LPN'S, same as you can never do away w/ EMT's .....try paying a medical doctor doing the job of an EMT?????
nursedora
105 Posts
From the consensus I'm gathering here, all of us, are for the most part, in agreement that LPN's should not be done away with. I agree, the best training is in the Practical Nurse training. And my 20+ years experience in nursing is my best educator.
The next thing is, what do we as a body of Nurses, both RN and LPN alike do about this? Is there anyway we can loby someone. What? (rhetoricaly asking) A start is as we who are present LPN's advance to RN, not fall into the catagory of being conseited toward our LPN counterparts. Remember our days as LPN's and value the training LPN's have. On the same note, new nurses, just starting out who have the "I'm better than you" attitude need to pull in their horns, and realize the wealth of knowlege and experience coming from both the older RN's and LPN's.
One experience I didn't tell when I responded to this thread is an experience I had while working in a LTC facility: At this LTC facility, it was part of my job to orient new Nurses to the routine, and floor. Both LPN's as well as RN's. The RN's after finishing with my orientation for the med pass, and treatments, were then oriented by the RN for the managerial aspects of the job. I had many new Nurses who were new LPN's going for their RN, give me attitude, saying comments like: "I don't need to pay much attention to what you have to say, next week I'll get my orientation from the RN, the REAL NURSE, and won't have to listen to what ever you have to say." or "My instructor told me I don't have to listen to you, a mere LPN, I'll be an RN soon and will be telling YOU what to do!" When a new hire would tell me comments like this, I would stop my orientation on that person, ask them if my years of experience meant anything, and turn their orientation over to the RN, and when they went out on the floor for their first med pass on their own. Sadly they didn't know what to do or how to do it, and stumbled with a hectic shift because they didn't know how to budget their time, or grumbled at the meanial tasks they had to do on the shift complaining an LPN should be there to do "it." I also have a long standing joke of sorts, like the LVN from TX, a Dr once refered to me as: "Oh! You are an LPN, a Little Pretend Nurse!" That was 19 years ago when that happened, honestly it stung, hurt to the core. But since, that Dr, who at the time was a new Dr, has grown to respect the value of a Practical Nurse as much as the RN.