Related to complaints about nursing homes I've heard arguments like "If they really loved her, they wouldn't have put her in a home. They'd take care of her themselves, nothing is more important than family."
Also, "What do you expect when you go to the cheapest possible nursing home/whatever medicare will pay for. If they really cared they'd put her in a more expensive/better nursing home".
Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
ugh. it's disgusting. i definitely would understand not visiting. i can't say i wouldn't have some sort of contact. again, this is me because of my irrational feeling of guilt even though let's say i'd be the victim. maybe i would write anonymous cards and gifts or something. again, this may seem irrational to others, but i just don't want anyone to feel alone. but this situation is understandable why the family wouldn't visit. however, is this person living in a nursing home now? how does he afford it? when i think nursing home, i see a specific population that can afford it or has family paying or has medical aid. but even with aid you still have to pay premiums. i doubt after being imprisoned he earned enough money to pay for nursing care or has someone willing to pay for his care. there usually is a specific "type" that goes into nursing care. usually it's not those with close cultural ties. usually, not always. for example, asian, filipino, middle eastern, etc., take their loved ones into their homes to care for them. looking at research studies on the demographics of nursing home populations, many are white women with well off families or well off themselves financially. again, not always the case. these are inferential statistics. and from my observations, there is an imbalance in women to men and with the rates nursing homes and retirement communities charge, there better be money somewhere. yes, people can be under medicare and medicaid, but again there is the need to pay the premiums. what i am trying to say is that nursing homes have a certain type of populationand characteristics. you may be referring to a whole other population where this guy would fit into. unless he is in a nursing home now and i would be curious to know how he is able to afford it.
please do not mistake this post with any attitude whatsoever. there is none at all.
we could not possibly mistake your posts for ones without attitude. i've highlighted the sentence about taking "loved ones" into their homes to care for them. some of the elders you see languishing in nursing homes without visitors are not "loved ones" because their behavior toward their families over the years has rendered them unloved. if not unlovable.
I work with one of the most giving, generous and thoughtful nurses I have ever encountered. She is taking care of her ailing mother. She works full time, as does her husband. She is 58 years old; she and her husband were vigilant about putting money away for retirement, which she hoped would be within the next 5 years.
Her mother's condition continued to decline, requiring more and more assistance. She would often call in sick, using her FMLA, but eating up her PTO. As a result, she hasn't been on (a much needed) vacation in years.
Her daughter just graduated from college, and can't find a job. So she moved back home. My friend must now provide for 2 extra people in the family. She doesn't mind doing so, and her daughter is helping her grandmother with ADLs. However, the daughter is young and understandably wants a social life, so many times when my friend comes home from work, nothing has been done. She is then faced with the task of cleaning, doing laundry, cooking, and taking care of bills...which have already increased.
Lo and behold, the husband's grown daughter (from his first marriage) got into a fight with her mother, and moved into the house too. She doesn't have a job, and isn't looking for one either. She is content to sit around all day, eat everything in the house, not bothering with cleaning up after herself, and is seemingly allergic to helping her step-grandmother. My friend was very unhappy about this added pressure, but what can she do? Her husband says that since her daughter moved in, why can't his? The daughter and step-daughter do not get along, and are constantly fighting. Now my friend has to deal with the dynamics of 3 extra people in the house.
Her marriage is under a great deal of stress, her responsibilities keep piling up, and she has ZERO downtime. She cannot relax in her own home, and sometimes verbalizes that work is less stressful than home. She is averaging 3-4 hours of sleep per night, continues to take call, and has lost weight. And guess what? The bills are through the freaking ROOF. All of the money she and her husband saved for retirement is gone.
The husband did some home repairs a few weekends ago and fell off of a ladder. He has a herniated disk and can't work. AND he needs surgery.
My friend is at the breaking point. As much as she hates the thought, she is considering assisted living for her mother.
The point of this story is that family dynamics are as different as fingerprints. We each have our own unique set. It is IMPOSSIBLE to truly understand the decisions that one family member makes for another.
We shouldn't try to understand. We SHOULD try to be empathetic.
My heart goes out to those who have been faced with the decision to put a parent into a nursing home. I can't pretend to understand the feelings that you must have experienced in this heartwrenching dilemma. My wish for y'all is that you find peace, comfort and strength for yourselves and for your loved ones.
This nurse's life is made so much harder by the selfish behaviour of the daughters.
Irregardless of wanting a social life or not .... both of them should be pulling their weight and doing all the household work plus doing their share of caregiving.
Perhaps some cultures understand this better than others??
I think one of the reasons multigenerational families work better for some cultures than others .... family members understand the responsibility and benefit of such an arrangement.
Also with tough times ahead and changed financial environment (middle class disappearing) perhaps it would be a good idea for families to learn from other cultures and make the multigenerational household work for them?
I think we will turn full circle. Persons of Western/northern Euro ethnicity will be forced to alter their 'family view' and do this for financial survival
Specializes in Trauma Surgery, Nursing Management.
Actually it's to understand thank you very much. And you should probably learn to communicate as this is an open forum and not a place to attack. Plus, asking questions and getting answers gives you a better perspective on things. Got it? Good!
1. How can your second sentence be perceived by readers as your seeking to understand? You state that you want to understand, and in the next breath state that the reader 'should probably learn to communicate'. Aren't you attacking by suggesting that the poster can't effectively communicate?
2. The end of your post just makes me shake my head. "Got it? Good!" That isn't exactly inviting communication.
2. The end of your post just makes me shake my head. "Got it? Good!" That isn't exactly inviting communication.
The argument is with a 23 year old who has most likely never been made to make these choices. Hopefully this same 23 year old was fortunate enough to grow up in the perfect little family, with a white picket fence and a dog and never has to really understand what this whole battle is all about.
this is a great thread; one of the best "argument" threads i've seen here in a while.
i feel like the real issue here (besides the harsh reality of what aging does to us) is the judging. it is human nature to judge; we all do it, whether we realize it or not. most common things we judge (or are judged for)
-what we wear/ how we look
-how we spend our money (oh, you can afford to go on vacation, but you're behind on bills?)
-decision to marry/not marry, have kids/number of kids we have (a total stranger in the hospital basically told me i was wrong for only having one child; i in contrast think anyone who has more than three are crazy... but would never tell that to anyone i know)
-decision to work outside the home (ft, pt, days/nights/weekends)
-decision to put children in daycare
-parenting (or inability to effectively parent)
things we (nurses) judge about:
-"frequent fliers" (often r/t noncompliance, although i don't feel we're really being judgmental here, it's obvious why they're back in)
-family members (i deal with a lot of peds; parenting issues, modeling appropriate behavior)
-drug seekers/dependency/addicts and perception of pain
-lifestyle choices (the 20 yr old single mom of three who whips out her wic/foodstamps card, but is sporting her ugg boots and gucci bag)
-(in peds) the parents who are not there at the bedside. god forbid they have a job, other kids, or maybe, just maybe they are in nursing school (we all know howinstructors have little sympathy for special circumstances ).
i worked in a peds ltf years back. some people may think "these places shouldn't even exist". imagine your child has a traumatic brain injury; he is one of four children, and you have an infant at home. the child is barely even wheelchair bound (because of his arched posture, and all of the relaxtion medications only get him into a semi-fowlers position). dependant on tube feeds. maybe you don't have room in your house for all the equipment for this child; his hospital bed does not fit into the room he has to share with his older sibling, who may be now scared to death of his little brother.
or maybe there are no other children in the house, and mom lives with grandma, aunt who is 15 years old and is a behavior problem, all in a one bedroom project, where the elevator is notoriously not working (and this child is way too heavy to be carried even one flight of stairs).
but i'm sure all of us here can honestly say to ourselves "i don't care what the circumstances are, i'll never put my kid away". are you willing to sacrifice your job, your marriage, the safety of your child, as well as any other children you may have just to save face in front of your family and friends, who would judge you for your decision?
i'm a former single parent (divorced, now re-married). i had a very unorhtodox visitation schedule for my child for a few years. people 'gently' judged me for it. now that it has changed, and i have my child full time, i hear the hindsight judgments. like the ones here who are being questioned (i won't use the word 'judged'), many people would say to me "why don't you just _____", or "just tell him _____" (referring to my ex). yeah, not that easy.
very well said! i too work at a ltc for severely disabled children and young adults. some of these youngsters were victims of child abuse (shaken baby syndrome), some were in unrestrained car accidents and suffered devastating brain injuries, and some were premies. i have never once judged any of the parents who made the very hard decision to place their child in our facility. these children and young adults are unable to do a single thing for themself. they are dependent on the nursing staff for all of their needs.
on a more personal level, i had a son who was born with multiple handicaps and a rare genetic birth defect and disorder. i kept my son at home taking care of him for 3 years. he had a gtube, colostomy, was blind and deaf, kidney and bladder issues, and was severely mentally impaired. i made the painful decision to place him a ltc for disabled children. he got the pt he needed on a daily basis and had round the clock nursing care. i was very active in his life there. i visited almost everyday and he came home for overnight visits constantly.
when my husband and i made that painful decision. my mil told us what awful parents we were. that we never loved our child. this was coming from the woman who never held my child a day in his life. she only lived about 20 minutes away, but would never come see him, or stop by to see if i needed help with him.
my son passed away 16 years ago at the age of 5. i do not regret our decison at all. at the time it was the right one for us. everyday i thank god for giving him to us and giving us 5 years with him.
i am paying it forward in a way, because now i get the chance to make a difference in the life of disabled children. i am part nurse, part friend, and part mom to them.
The group that had a patient that could be cared for in the home, and had the resources to do it.
The group that had a patient that could be cared for in the home, but couldn't do it due to financial constraints, history of abuse or current abuse, or other problems
The group that had a patient that could NOT be cared for in the home, but had no resources for placement
The group that had a patient that could NOT be cared for in the home, but had resources for placement.
Some had a progression from one group to another.
Each of these groups had a very different set of experiences. And a lot of people are one medical problem away from foreclosure, bankruptcy, and homelessness as 401ks have evaporated. We had a lot of people in our area where both parents worked at the same facility and looked after both elderly, ill parents and young children. When the facility shut down and there was literally nowhere within 50 miles to work, and nobody to buy your house because everyone else was trying to leave, too. If they had a little piece of property, they aren't eligible for medicaid, but if you can't sell the farm, what can you do?
My parents have medicare and insurance, yet to get them the shingles vaccine would cost almost 500 dollars I don't have (227 per injection). What do I do? Get the sickest the shot? You know what it feels like to essentially triage your own parent? Give me the shot so I can keep brining in income? Turns out nobody got the shot because the truck needed new tires so I could keep going to work, and mom and dad could keep the house.
Whatever our situation, we need to help each other when we're going thru this. I may think a patient's family is the dumbest thing walking for their choice, but given that it is their right, we need to do the best we can for all involved. And that includes not making them feel like crap because their conclusion wasn't the one you would (or could) have chosen.
Specializes in Trauma Surgery, Nursing Management.
The argument is with a 23 year old who has most likely never been made to make these choices. Hopefully this same 23 year old was fortunate enough to grow up in the perfect little family, with a white picket fence and a dog and never has to really understand what this whole battle is all about.
Keep this in mind as the debate continues....
I understand that the member is young, but I would never in a million years assume what kind of background she has, what kind of challenges she has faced, or in what kind of environment she was raised in.
My issue with her post is that she was on the one hand stating that she was seeking understanding, and on the other hand, suggesting that another poster learn how to communicate better simply because they disagreed with her.
She expressed an interest in psychology. The WAY she worded her post is what raised my hackles, especially considering her stated interest in psych.
I am all for a good debate, but give more credence to a post that INVITES further debate, rather than using words that seemingly shut down all further discussion like "Got it? Good!"
Debates are healthy, and encourages readers to ponder the subject matter. I have oftentimes changed my opinion because a well spoken (ok, written) member has pointed out a perspective that I did not consider, with rationale to back up their perspective. That's one of the reasons I love this forum so much. The key to a good debate is to NEVER make it personal...and that can be a tall order sometimes.
Having an opinion about something IS a judgment. We make millions of judgements every day. Is choosing 1 cereal over another in the morning making a judgment on all the other cereals that they are not as good? No- it was simply a culmination of what your needs/wants for that day are and making a choice.
Equating a 'preference' with a 'judgement' makes no sense to me. A judgment IS based on a good/bad, better/worse, worthy/unworthy decision about the core being of the thing in question. A preference is just that. No positive/negative involved. Just what floats one's boat that day :)
Ugh. It's disgusting. I definitely would understand not visiting. I can't say I wouldn't have some sort of contact. Again, this is me because of my irrational feeling of guilt even though let's say I'd be the victim. Maybe I would write anonymous cards and gifts or something. Again, this may seem irrational to others, but I just don't want anyone to feel alone. But this situation is understandable why the family wouldn't visit. However, is this person living in a nursing home now? How does he afford it? When I think nursing home, I see a specific population that can afford it or has family paying or has medical aid. But even with aid you still have to pay premiums. I doubt after being imprisoned he earned enough money to pay for nursing care or has someone willing to pay for his care. There usually is a specific "type" that goes into nursing care. Usually it's not those with close cultural ties. Usually, not always. For example, Asian, Filipino, middle eastern, etc., take their loved ones into their homes to care for them. Looking at research studies on the demographics of nursing home populations, many are white women with well off families or well off themselves financially. Again, not always the case. These are inferential statistics. And from my observations, there is an imbalance in women to men and with the rates nursing homes and retirement communities charge, there better be money somewhere. Yes, people can be under Medicare and Medicaid, but again there is the need to pay the premiums. What I am trying to say is that nursing homes have a certain type of populationand characteristics. You may be referring to a whole other population where this guy would fit into. Unless he is in a nursing home now and I would be curious to know how he is able to afford it.
Please do not mistake this post with any attitude whatsoever. There is none at all.
No attitude assumed :) And none meant with this reply
A HUGE reason that there are more white women is that they simply live longer than their spouses. Re: the finances- they also have Social Security from the 80s on up. Those are negligible if the female spouse didn't work and contribute her own SS taxes. "Well off" for a family of healthy young people is one thing; add a dependent elder w/medications that don't come in generic forms (even "just" Lantus and NovoLog are >$200/package- not the prescription in its entirety, but each vial/pkg of pens, then add syringes, needles, pen tips) , specialist MD visits, equipment, and the need for round the clock supervision and care, and that 'well off' just became indigent. There is a very fine line between eligibility for help, and not.
"Better be money somewhere"- could also be that the spouse that died went through much of their 80's retirement money (which is squat compared to the cost of things now) during the illness that caused the death of the spouse. SO, that money is gone- legitimately. (I started out as an RN in 1985 making 7 bucks an hour- as a registered - educated- person; minimum wage was less than 3 bucks/hour.... pensions were based on those kinds of wages). Someone "blue collar" like my grandparents were doing well to make ends meet. Medicare pays for a fraction of healthcare costs- and like you mentioned, premiums are expensive (I pay 450/month for Medicare premiums- B, Supplement, and part D....for disability reasons).
Rent in the 80s was about 300.00 in Austin, TX on the bus route (no car for 8 months) . Nothing fancy- but very typical of a 'middle class' apartment. I don't know what mortgages or larger places would have gone for. :) In the late 90s, I SAW pension/SS checks when I'd help the Accounts Receivable person at the beginning of the month, opening envelopes to sort out those checks. MANY were below $300 (a semi-private room in the non-skilled beds was about $95 per DAY).... in the late 90s. And some of those could very well be alive today (with their pitiful pensions) - not all came in as fossils :) One woman was 108 years old- she'd outlived her family. We saw them come and go- feet first. In the late 90s, rural TX rent was about 550.00 for a modest, older 2-bdrm; for a new complex, it was about 650.00 for a one bedroom. Add utilities (and cable was necessary to get any signals at all d/t the hills :)), food, meds, premiums, etc..... they'd go through any retirement in a hurry.
All of my examples of abuse were white men. Blue collar. Aside from the one who was convicted, the others would be POSSIBLE LTC candidates when they got older- or their surviving spouse, should they die (I know that one for sure had a spouse die before he did- and the son of that one was told to have a good time, since he was the only one not abused by the xxxxxxd). There would be no sum of money stashed away somewhere.
The days of people staying with the same company (and building up years of pension with one employer) are pretty well over. (AND, that doesn't allow for the stock market to tank a few years ago- a lot of people lost a lot of money- even if they had been careful) If someone has a family member with medical issues that aren't covered by their insurance- or there were pre-existing conditions not covered, that money would be siphoned away like water into a sponge. Then add folks who made bad financial decisions by getting all of their 'toys' before setting aside emergency money- and having emergency situations arise, and they're not going to be having any hidden stash of cash show up .....
Yes- there are statistical demographics- but those are based on large groups of different types of people. Those statistics probably don't apply as clearly to the "lower middle class" neighborhood LTC, or "upper middle class" neighborhood LTC..... so in some ways, they are only partly useful :) There are more white women in nursing homes, simply because there are more white women alive at the typical nursing home ages. When I was working LTC, the company I worked for had stats that showed that only %5 of elderly folks ever end up in a nursing home (not the same as short term rehab stats). FIVE percent.
So, even if assuming the worst, that means %5 of the population made the decision to place their family member. %95 are either well enough, or have family support (or both) to stay home. That's not too bad, imho :)
1) You dropped Mom off at the nursing home, and NEVER. CAME. BACK. Changed your phone number, the whole nine yards. I don't care what your mom used to do- you are a jerk.
2) You JUST brought Mom into the nursing home, and we now have custody, because mom has several fractures, and an ungodly number of pressure sores. However, you are now screaming at me because her blanket is untidy. Go away.
3) Your mother is here. So are you! Awesome! But... but you are here LITERALLY 24/7, and have multiple sitters for this lovely woman. Why are you here? It might be easier to take her home.
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Ruby Vee, BSN
17 Articles; 14,051 Posts
we could not possibly mistake your posts for ones without attitude. i've highlighted the sentence about taking "loved ones" into their homes to care for them. some of the elders you see languishing in nursing homes without visitors are not "loved ones" because their behavior toward their families over the years has rendered them unloved. if not unlovable.