"Don't waste your time getting your BSN..."

jjjoy, LPN · Sep 19, 2007

I'll admit that my BSN program taught that BSNs were better prepared than other RNs and that non-BSN programs would likely be phased out in the future. There were many implications that BSN training created better nurses with broader skills. They never made a point to say that all RNs studied the same BON approved curriculum (at least minimally), took the same NCLEX examination, and applied for many of the same positions with the same pay. The role and responsibilities of LVNs was even more vague. They simply said that RN would need to "delegate" to the LVN if they worked with them. I was quite surprised to find LVNs working more or less independently in many settings.

Now if pushed on the issue, the faculty from my program would probably say that they meant that BSNs are better prepared for *certain roles* and that all RNs would be better served if they all had the same preparation so as not to be limited in opportunities.

rn/writer, RN · Sep 19, 2007

It's one thing to be discussing BSN entry level in theory. But what about the practical aspects of setting the educational bar higher?

Just for the sake of argument, let's say that some august body managed to set entry level at BSN. What then? There aren't enough nursing instructors to go around now.

Even if current ADN and diploma programs could somehow be retooled into BSN completion programs (a highly unlikely possibility given differences between the program requirements), there would be a minimum of a two year period during which there would be a huge deficit between the number of nurses graduating with a BSN under the current system and those graduating under the new system. There is debate about the extent of the existing nursing shortage, but this certainly wouldn't improve the situation.

With no more ADN/diploma programs available, the number of people entering nursing school (all BSN students) would shrink from the current size (all RN programs combined) as a sizeable percentage of those now going into the far less costly non-BSN schools would not be able to afford the schooling and would have greater difficulty managing a four-year college schedule as opposed to an ADN program that is more suited to the needs of adult students who have to balance other family and work committments. A tremendous pool of applicants would simply dry up as the entry-level requirements would exceed their practical (but not their academic) capabilities.

This might allow the four-year schools time to re-allocate resources and expand their programs, but the result would still be far fewer graduates for a lengthy period.

For all the touting of the benefits of improving our professional lot with BSN entry level, I have never heard anything approaching a practical proposal for making it happen.

jjjoy: Now if pushed on the issue, the faculty from my program would probably say that they meant that BSNs are better prepared for *certain roles* and that all RNs would be better served if they all had the same preparation so as not to be limited in opportunities.

I have to agree with this in principle. But many people who do not want an independent or advanced practice would not benefit from BSN entry level, especially if the additional time and money required to achieve it priced them out of the market right from the start.

The reality is that education is valuable, but not at the expense of meeting the ever-growing needs of the population for competent nursing care which is well within the capablities of the ADN- or diploma-prepared nurse. To set this reality aside is to sacrifice a functional necessity for an impractical ideal.

The best way to raise the percentage of BSN nurses is to keep the ADN and diploma programs just as they are, but to strongly encourage and support continuing education and completion programs.

We do not need the approval of other disciplines regarding our status as professionals at the cost of underserving the growing patient population which is only going to increase as people live longer and have more complex needs.

If anyone has any practical ideas to suggest regarding BSN entry level, I'd be interested in hearing them.

HealthyRN · Sep 19, 2007

First, I am not saying that a Bachelors degree is worthless....please point out where I have ever said that it is worthless.
However, many of the BSN-only crowd are implying that it is worthless, because it does not matter "more" than other degrees. Thus that devalues it, insinuating that education and knowledge is only good if it offers some material advantage, position, or elitism over others, instead valuing education for itself and the nonmaterial benfits that education and knowledge offers one.
Second, many of us as children have not had it impressed upon us that a college degree was "almost like having a high school diploma". We find knowledge more important than "degrees.
And third, as nurses, we have all passed the same NCLEX and have the Nursing Boards that have set down requirements and standards that ALL NURSING SCHOOLS, regardless of degree awarded, must attain or exceed. Requirements on amounts and nature of clinical studies, testing, etc. Thus we all are starting "on the same page", we know that we all have attained those uniform standards, and have been tested on those standards.
It actually puts us closer to being "on the same page" than some professions, such as journalism. Many professions do not have that test and those standards. A Bachelors from one place matters more than another, because there is not the uniformity.
As far as life and death situations - those are dealt with by nurses, but also EMTs, paramedics, military corpsmen, firemen, and police officers. They deal with life and death under much more stressful conditions and much less controlled situations, and do it quite successfully.

I didn't mean to make it sound as if you said a BSN is worthless, because you obviously never said that. It was a rhetorical question and not directed specificly at you.

I realize that many of you may have not encountered the idea of a bachelor's degree replacing what used to be the high school diploma for the minimum requirement for entry into most "good" jobs. But six years ago, when I was graduating high school, that is what I was told and it is what I believe. My nieces are in middle school and there is no question in their minds that they will have to continue on to a university in order to get a good paying job and succeed in life. And I would want nothing less for them.

I guess I just have to resign myself to the fact that nursing is a profession that does not value education. I agree that other professions deal with "life or death" situations and do not require college degrees. These are also occupations known as "blue collar". Is nursing is a blue collar occupation too?

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Sep 19, 2007

I don't worry about my "collar" color....it is irrelevant to my ego, and matters very little in my life.

Do we not have more to worry about in our lives than whether we are considered blue collar, white collared or paisley colored? I personally do not care if they think I am dung-colored collar. There are a heck of a lot more important things.

NightOwl0624 · Sep 21, 2007

Why are there people that argue that a university degree shouldn't be required to practice in a profession that has control over life or death situations?

Ok, granted I don't have a BS in Nursing, but I do have a BS degree in another field from a well respected public university. I'm trying to remember which of those general credit classes would have made the difference in preparing me for life or death situations? Sociology? Music History? English Lit perhaps?

I value education as well as the next person, and I certainly do not regret the classes I took to get my degree. However, I have faith that the standards set for obtaining that license prepares everyone equally to handle those life or death situations. At least I hope so. Otherwise, we are all in big trouble!

sharona97, BSN, RN · Sep 21, 2007

I'm currently going to a community college for my LPN to RN Bridge Program. I see speech needed to help me if I someday do some public or teaching skills. I see sociology as a way of realizing everyone is not the same and that does not make a person wrong for that. I see English classes to help me if I want to later in my career write a paper that could get published.

I see taking clinicals very seriously as I'm being exposed to different situations on a daily basis and that could involve a life or death situation.

I would love to attend a University and acquire all of the above, but for financial reasons I choose my local community college that is accredited.

In the end, if we choose nursing as our profession, it is our own license that we develop our scope of practice. And I plan to do my job well, to the best of my ability. I'm sure you will too by the sounds of your concern between life and death.

Just 2 different schools that have the same goal. Just my opinion.

teiladay · Sep 21, 2007

I didn't mean to make it sound as if you said a BSN is worthless, because you obviously never said that. It was a rhetorical question and not directed specificly at you.
I realize that many of you may have not encountered the idea of a bachelor's degree replacing what used to be the high school diploma for the minimum requirement for entry into most "good" jobs. But six years ago, when I was graduating high school, that is what I was told and it is what I believe. My nieces are in middle school and there is no question in their minds that they will have to continue on to a university in order to get a good paying job and succeed in life. And I would want nothing less for them.
I guess I just have to resign myself to the fact that nursing is a profession that does not value education. I agree that other professions deal with "life or death" situations and do not require college degrees. These are also occupations known as "blue collar". Is nursing is a blue collar occupation too?

** DING - DING - DING !!!! ** You get the golden prize! You hit the nail right on the head. A high school diploma hasn't really been worth much (when it comes to securing jobs that pay more than the median U.S. income) for years. The Bachelors degree IS the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM that is required for most well paying jobs, and to be honest...unless people have been hiding under a rock for the past decade, a Masters Degree is basically the "must have" to get anywhere today (generally speaking) in most fields (finance, education, business, chemistry, bio sciences, food science, etc..) , and a Doctorate is pretty much the standard in fields like Physics, etc.. Face it, that just the bottom line.

Its not the actual degree that matters much of the time, but rather the type of person that you're TYPICALLY dealing with when you require people in a particular field to have a particular type of degree (past associates).

In the "real world" it is almost impossible to get a decent job with only an associates degree. In fact other than your medical tech type jobs (radiology, sonography, dental hy., etc.) and nursing, an associates degree is *virtually* worthless UNLESS you're going on to finish your undergraduate degree.

I would not THINK of NOT getting a BSN or higher, as to me, all the good nursing jobs start AFTER getting the Masters Degree (NP, CRNA, etc..)

I would never recommend not getting a degree to my children. No way, no how!!

(chuckle)

guerrierdelion · Sep 22, 2007

i am only a student, but to me the only thing that should matter is what you want to get. to be completely honest it doesn't matter what other people think about your degree choice. ultimately it is your path in life and they don't get to live it. so, in short, go for what you want and let the opinions of others roll off your back like water off a duck, lol. good luck in your educational endeavors.:)
sunny

http://www.dcardillo.com/articles/celebratediversity.html

"adn vs. bsn: who's the better nurse? this is the debate that just will not die. just mention the topic to two or more nurses and a heated discussion will likely ensue. while an argument can be made about the pros and cons of various entry-level options in nursing, none of those arguments has anything to do with which produces a better nurse. despite some program differences, both adn and bsn grads take the nclex-rn exam and are held to the same rigid standards for licensure and practice.

nursing candidates are no longer the homogenous group they were 30 years ago. some candidates are coming into nursing in mid-life with degrees in other disciplines and significant work experience. and every prospective nurse has different career aspirations, personal and family commitments, and work/life experience.

i'm a big supporter of higher education and would encourage nurses to continue with their formal education. but whether a nurse gets that education at entry level or at a later time is an individual choice based on life circumstances, resources, and career aspirations."

"work is love made visible. and if you cannot work with love but only with distaste, it is better that you should leave your work and sit at the gate of the temple and take alms of those who work with joy. for if you break bread with indifference, you bake bitter bread that feeds but half a man's hunger. and if you grudge the crushing of grapes, your grudge distills a poison in the wine. and if you sing though as angels, and love not the singing, you muffle man's ears to the voices of the day and the voices of the night."

~ kahlil gibran

20th century syrian-born mystic poet, philosopher, and artist

from the prophet

dorselm · Sep 25, 2007

IN my former life, I was an accountant with an AS in Accounting and a BS in Business. I worked as an accountant for 8 1/2 yrs. I had to take the full-time day nursing program because I couldn't go to school for another 4 years to become a BSN. If I would have done that, I would have had a full-time schedule in addition to working and I could't work full-time for 4 years and attend full-time school for 4 years. This is why I entered the diploma program. The beautiful thing is, after I graduate, my school is affiliated with a university where I can take 8 online classes and in one more year, I can have my BSN.

Question, for those of us who earn a diploma or ADN in nursing and a have Bachelor Degrees in other disciplines, are we considered BSN nurses and if not, why?

Dragonnurse1, ASN, RN · Sep 25, 2007

to the writer that has a BS in accounting or

BSin anyfield (in our state) need only take Nursing core sourses ( 5 guarters) and you will receive your BSN. It is like have a major in one field and a minor in nurseing then you get to be a nurse.

This country's medical care is to put it nicely in a snafu. Currently nuring is running at least 200.00 behind. More nurses are leaving than graduating and we waste our time bickering instead of finding a lobby or someone in congress to champion our very existence. Leave it to the hospitals and soon nurses will be relagated to changing bed pans and being the doctors handmaiden.

People please, if you can work be glad, I for one lost my career in five minutes. March 12, 2003 CPR recert. Now on social security disability, I had only 9 years, 3 months, and 15 days to be a nurse. So I got an Associates and not a Batchlors did it make a difference for my pay level NO, I was charge nurse in my time and glad to give it up. I was happiest being the #2 of who the best nurse in the ER on our shift. I wanted to work night because I hated the suits both MD's and the non-MD's that were deciding our future. And having a BSN would have put me in a position of meetings and reports and I would have lost my job (mouth over-rides brain and starts talking.

Yes we can disagree without being disagreeable - that is how our country came to be.

amzyRN · Sep 25, 2007

IN my former life, I was an accountant with an AS in Accounting and a BS in Business. I worked as an accountant for 8 1/2 yrs. I had to take the full-time day nursing program because I couldn't go to school for another 4 years to become a BSN. If I would have done that, I would have had a full-time schedule in addition to working and I could't work full-time for 4 years and attend full-time school for 4 years. This is why I entered the diploma program. The beautiful thing is, after I graduate, my school is affiliated with a university where I can take 8 online classes and in one more year, I can have my BSN.
Question, for those of us who earn a diploma or ADN in nursing and a have Bachelor Degrees in other disciplines, are we considered BSN nurses and if not, why?

Congrats on becoming a nurse! I also have a BA in the biological sciences and it was an very very rigorous major. I considered going for an associates degree, since I already have the BA and my final goal in nurse practitioner and would thus be eligible to attend grad school anyway, w/o the BSN (in many programs).

There are a few programs for NP that require a BSN. I also considered the direct entry option, but took what ever came along first, as I missed the app deadline for several programs. I am now doing an Accelerated BSN. Since you already have a BA and a diploma RN, I would think that it would be easier for you to get the BSN. If you want to go to grad school though, it would probably be okay just to keep what you have and get into a masters program.

If you want to stay as an RN and move into management and get paid more, etc. then I think it's worth it to get the BSN. I think that in nursing they value the BSN more than another BA in a different field, thought you would probably put that on your resume which may make a difference. I'm not sure and great question. Take care,

J

sharona97, BSN, RN · Sep 25, 2007

dragonnurse1,

My point exactly, you never know when you could become disabled and or very, very, sick. I too am disabled. I had 28 years of nursing and I'm continueing my education to a higher degree in nursing. Your point of pulling together is so poignant and needed.

I wish you the best and am sorry to hear of your disability.