"Don't waste your time getting your BSN..."

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People are always trying to tell me that I am going to waste my time by not stopping after getting my ASN. They say that getting your BSN just gets you management positions and that it does not pay more. I am going for my masters so I can be a CNM, so I have to have my BSN anyway but, how could it be true that a person with a BSN gets the same as a person with a ASN? (Aside from the fact that working in different dept can make a difference)

Specializes in CCU, CVICU, ER.

I completely agree with you. However, before someone jumps all over you for it, I just want to point out that PTs now have a clinical doctorate, the DPT, and not PhDs. PhDs are academic degrees and are different from the clinical doctorates.

Regardless, I believe that you are absolutely right. Nursing is being left behind while all other health professionals are advancing their professions. It really is sad and I understand what you mean about regreting going into nursing because of this attitude toward education.

Some nurses argue that bachelor's degrees aren't necessary because diploma and ADN nurses are just as competent as BSN nurses. We have the NCLEX to set standards for our profession and formal education shouldn't be required, right? I agree that diploma and ADN nurses can be just as skilled and wonderful as BSN nurses. As in all professions, there are good and bad nurses and degree status usually doesn't make a difference in that regard. However, I see the BSN as setting a higher standard for nursing. A bachelor's degree means something to the public and to the professionals that we work with on a daily basis. It means that we were willing to put the time in, make sacrifices, and jump through the hoops to earn something valuable. It means that we received a well-rounded education and took coursework outside of our major. It means that we are on the same level as other health care professionals that require at least a bachelor's. It means that not just anyone can do it.

I am not saying that just anyone could earn an ADN, but that is what people outside of nursing believe. I earned an associate's degree while I was still in high school. I am not devaluing the ADN, but I am just saying that most people believe that this degree can be earned easily. They do not understand that an ADN is a much tougher route than the typical associate's degree. Why don't we want to elevate our profession and get recognized for the intellectual work that goes into becoming a nurse?

I think you hit the nail on the head. Nurses are not respected as they should be, probably the fact that Nursing is predominately female has something to do with that. Being such, we NEED to have the whole package...education and experience. I am so tired of nurses dismissing the need for a College degree because they state it dosen't make them a better nurse. That is not the point. I agree that I have worked with many LPN's and ADN's who are excellent nurses, but that does not gloss over their lack of formal education. PA's have Master's degrees, OT's have Bachelors and Masters degrees, PT's have Ph.D's now for entry level, Dieticians have a minimum of a Bachelors degree, and nurses don't even have to have a Bachelor's degree to practice. We are way behind the other health care professions, but nurses just want to ignore it by stating that they don't need a formal education. I find it so sad, and frankly sometimes it really makes me regret going into this profession. Nurses are their own worst enemies.
Specializes in ED, Cardiac-step down, tele, med surg.
I completely agree with you. However, before someone jumps all over you for it, I just want to point out that PTs now have a clinical doctorate, the DPT, and not PhDs. PhDs are academic degrees and are different from the clinical doctorates.

Regardless, I believe that you are absolutely right. Nursing is being left behind while all other health professionals are advancing their professions. It really is sad and I understand what you mean about regreting going into nursing because of this attitude toward education.

Some nurses argue that bachelor's degrees aren't necessary because diploma and ADN nurses are just as competent as BSN nurses. We have the NCLEX to set standards for our profession and formal education shouldn't be required, right? I agree that diploma and ADN nurses can be just as skilled and wonderful as BSN nurses. As in all professions, there are good and bad nurses and degree status usually doesn't make a difference in that regard. However, I see the BSN as setting a higher standard for nursing. A bachelor's degree means something to the public and to the professionals that we work with on a daily basis. It means that we were willing to put the time in, make sacrifices, and jump through the hoops to earn something valuable. It means that we received a well-rounded education and took coursework outside of our major. It means that we are on the same level as other health care professionals that require at least a bachelor's. It means that not just anyone can do it.

I am not saying that just anyone could earn an ADN, but that is what people outside of nursing believe. I earned an associate's degree while I was still in high school. I am not devaluing the ADN, but I am just saying that most people believe that this degree can be earned easily. They do not understand that an ADN is a much tougher route than the typical associate's degree. Why don't we want to elevate our profession and get recognized for the intellectual work that goes into becoming a nurse?

I agree insofar as that I think it is important to value higher education, like the bachelors degree and wanting to get one so that graduate school is an option later on. I think that is a good move in a strategic sense.

Yet with respect to the BSN degree and requiring it for entry to practice, that is just not possible now with the shortage. Additionally, out here in California, there aren't enough schools to accommodate qualified applicants. For example SF state requires almost a perfect 4.00 to be competitive . Also, at SF state, students interested in having nursing as a major are required to attend junior college first and as said before get almost a perfect 4.00. Well, some people are capable of that, but some have additional obligations that take time away from study and some people just can't make the grades. Okay, some people may say "well too bad, they don't have the grades, they don't get into the program." If we do that, then what happens with the nursing shortage? It would significantly reduce the number of nurses significantly and that would add to the shortage. How could that work practically to require a BSN to practice?

J

Specializes in Oncology/Haemetology/HIV.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Nurses are not respected as they should be, probably the fact that Nursing is predominately female has something to do with that. Being such, we NEED to have the whole package...education and experience. I am so tired of nurses dismissing the need for a College degree because they state it dosen't make them a better nurse. That is not the point. I agree that I have worked with many LPN's and ADN's who are excellent nurses, but that does not gloss over their lack of formal education.

I find it so sad, and frankly sometimes it really makes me regret going into this profession. Nurses are their own worst enemies.

I find myself very well respected by my colleagues, my patients, and the other healthcare providers. The public has repeatedly voted nurses as "the most trustworthy" in polls for years, over MDs, over clergy, over even police in most years.

If you are not feeling respected, that might have to do with how you behave and how you feel that you are viewed. If YOU are feeling "sad" about it, maybe YOU need to do something about that - the problem is not with us around you. We are doing just fine, and have no need to change...so that you can feel better about being in this profession.

You knew what nursing was when you got into it...if YOU regret it, that is YOUR issue. If you have a problem being part of a profession that recognizes fully tested and qualified associate/diploma nurses, then you need to find a way of readjust your expectations. The rest of us (who are doing well and respected) do not owe it to you to change, so YOU will feel better.

Further, please do not say, "Nurses are their own worst enemies" as a blanket statement and rather insulting. For many of us, that is total and complete nonsense. If you think that your fellow nurses are your enemies, that is to you...I certainly don't feel my colleagues are our worst enemies. But then, I value more about them, than the initials behind the names.

I agree insofar as that I think it is important to value higher education, like the bachelors degree and wanting to get one so that graduate school is an option later on. I think that is a good move in a strategic sense.

Yet with respect to the BSN degree and requiring it for entry to practice, that is just not possible now with the shortage. Additionally, out here in California, there aren't enough schools to accommodate qualified applicants. For example SF state requires almost a perfect 4.00 to be competitive . Also, at SF state, students interested in having nursing as a major are required to attend junior college first and as said before get almost a perfect 4.00. Well, some people are capable of that, but some have additional obligations that take time away from study and some people just can't make the grades. Okay, some people may say "well too bad, they don't have the grades, they don't get into the program." If we do that, then what happens with the nursing shortage? It would significantly reduce the number of nurses significantly and that would add to the shortage. How could that work practically to require a BSN to practice?

J

I agree that there is no easy answer to the "nursing shortage". However, several steps could be taken to make BSN as entry-to-practice a reality. Remember, other health professions are also facing acute shortages. Using PT as an example, they are predicting severe shortages. Despite this, the DPT is now required in most states. PT has benefited from controlling the number of people who enter the profession.

All of the current ADN and diploma RNs could be grandfathered in and not required to get a bachelor's degree. The ADN programs that currently exist could partner with universities to expand the number of seats available for BSN students. If the ADN programs were to be shut down, the faculty would have to go somewhere.

Also, if hospitals really cared about the nursing shortage, they would improve working conditions so that the 500,000 eligible RNs who are currently not working in nursing would return. If hospitals knew that the local community college was no longer churning out grads every two years, they might work a little harder on retention.

I agree that there is no easy answer to the "nursing shortage". However, several steps could be taken to make BSN as entry-to-practice a reality. Remember, other health professions are also facing acute shortages. Using PT as an example, they are predicting severe shortages. Despite this, the DPT is now required in most states. PT has benefited from controlling the number of people who enter the profession.

All of the current ADN and diploma RNs could be grandfathered in and not required to get a bachelor's degree. The ADN programs that currently exist could partner with universities to expand the number of seats available for BSN students. If the ADN programs were to be shut down, the faculty would have to go somewhere.

Also, if hospitals really cared about the nursing shortage, they would improve working conditions so that the 500,000 eligible RNs who are currently not working in nursing would return. If hospitals knew that the local community college was no longer churning out grads every two years, they might work a little harder on retention.

AMEN!!! I have been saying this exact thing for years. The problem is, no one wants to hear it. Everyone, especially hospitals, want to continue the status quo. There is no better way to "control the nursing profession", than to have continued revolving door employment. No one stays long enough in positions to have a stake in effecting the necessary change that is so desperatly needed.

Nurses are not doing anyone, especially to their fellow nurses, by allowing the status quo. Nurses need to demand higher salaries for BSNs, and also demand on site ADN/DIPLOMA to BSN programs. Nothing will ever change until WE DEMAND IT.

As the above person stated, there is a shortage of PTs, OTs, Pharmacists, and they have record numbers of applicants. They control the number of people entering their profession, and are in great demand.

THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!!

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

Specializes in CCU, CVICU, ER.
Specializes in mostly in the basement.

Bravo Preppy Girl!

I've mentioned before I only step in here every once in a while because it's so frustrating. I refuse to believe that so many of my fellow nurses just "don't get it." Either people do get it and simply just like to argue or perhaps some really don't, which says to me we may need to push EVEN harder for greater education! (wHOA, DUCKING DOWN ON THAT ONE!)

I think you hit the nail on the head here:

"I have worked with many great nurses over the years and what I find

sad is the ones that really care about advancing the nursing profession,

and value education have become frustrated and moved on to other

healthcare professions outside of nursing."

Tha'ts most definitely my plan. I came to nursing as a second degree nurse and chose a BSN program over an accelerated MSN (got into both) because I wanted to work the floor and understand the role and function of an RN before i tried jumping out as an APN. Oh how I truly regret that choice. Now, having worked for a couple of years, seen what it is really like, and realizing that so many other nurses apparently think things are just hunky dory out there, with no desire to improve the environment, I'm ready to be a third degree something else entirely.

I will probably end up a PA or APN--apps. have gone out again. I do love nursing--but not if I will continue to be 'the odd one' because I am aware of and able to discuss the problems nurses face while at the same time come up with practical solutions and then just get grief.

I guess to each his own, ultimately. I'm taking Carolina Belle's advice. I WILL change. And I'll miss the floor(or ER in my case) because I really was gettin' good at what I do.

Specializes in ED, Cardiac-step down, tele, med surg.
I'm going to get a lot of flack for this, but here it goes. You have completely missed my point. Nurses have been voted as most trustworthy. Yes, that is very nice. I am glad that people view nurses as trustworthy, that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. However, warm and fuzzy does not pay the bills, does not improve working conditions, and does not gain us the respect as a profession that we clearly do not have. You make the argument that you are very well respected. Really? Maybe you are confusing people being nice to you with respect. If we are so well respected than why are we consistently understaffed and expected to do not just our job, but everyone elses job as well. If there is no secretary, who has to answer the phones and type in orders? The nurse. If the pharmacy has not filled the Omnicell with certain medications, who has to run to the Pharmacy to pick up the medication? The nurse. When transport is busy, who has to run patients back and forth to radiology? The nurse. If the aid is busy and a patient has soiled the entire bed, who is expected to clean the patient and change the bed? The nurse. I never see the MD, PA, PT, or OT do any of these things. Sometimes I am so busy running around doing everyone elses job that I barely have time to assess my patients, look up their history, and really be a part of their team in caring for their needs. Why is the nurse expected to fill in and do all the scuff work? Why are nurses expected to do an inhuman amount of work for little compensation? Because we don't demand better, and even if we did, we don't have the education to back up our demands. As long as nurses feel that having less education is "good enough", we will always be at the bottom of the healthcare professions. That is what I mean when I say that nurses are their own worst enemies. Let me clue you in...there is no nursing shortage. Hospitals understaff and pay us less then we should receive because we just take it. Nurses get burned out and leave the profession, and since the community colleges are cranking out new graduates all the time, the hospitals know they can pay less to a fresh new grad. Newsflash...nursing is a career, it is not a calling. Let's move beyond the Florence Nightengale facade and start acting like professionals who should be treated and compensated as such.

As far as your implication that I must "behave" a certain way if I don't feel respected, you are absolutely wrong. I behave like an educated professional who is part of the healthcare team, not the do-girl of the healthcare team. I personally receive a tremendous amount of respect from my colleagues, but as a group, nurses are not respected. You make the statement "we are doing just fine and have no need to change". We are not doing just fine. It is that attitude that contributes to many problems in the profession.

I have been a nurse for almost 14 years. I was twenty-two when I started as a nurse. I love this profession and nurses, which is why I have stuck with it for so long. You think we are so well respected? Let me tell you what I was told by a few MD's and PA's who are my colleagues. I was accepted into a PA program, and these MD's and PA's told me to go back to school because "smart, motivated people like myself who are educated should not be in a job dominated by high school dropouts, teenage mothers, and people who could only get into a community college". Really nice huh? I think very highly of fellow nurses, but having very little formal education hurts us in the eyes of others. You can say that, "The initials behind ones name" means nothing to you. Lets deal with reality...it does matter in eyes of others. You said that, "If you have a problem with being part of a profession that recognizes fully tested and qualified associate/diploma RN's, then you need to find a way to readjust your expectations." Readjust how? Or did you mean lower? Well, I refuse to lower my expectations, and you should not either. I have worked with many great nurses over the years and what I find sad is the ones that really care about advancing the nursing profession, and value education have become frustrated and moved on to other healthcare professions outside of nursing. I will probably be doing the same. I fully believe that I will be a great PA because I am a nurse, and for that I will always be greatful to nursing. I hope all nurses on this forum who read this do not feel that I am an elitist that looks down on nursing or non-BSN RN's. If I didn't care so much for other nurses and the profession I would not feel as strongly as I do about making this profession better.

Preppygirl RN, BSN, CEN, CCRN

Wow, I'm surprised that educated people like MDs and PAs told you that you should go back to school as to not be confused with high school drop outs, teenage mothers, and people who could only get into a community college!! That is one of the rudest and most moronic elitist statement that I've heard in a long time and to have it to come out of the mouth of so called educated people reveals the ignorance among so called "educated people". Are these the people you look up to? I would certainly hope not!

So, then ignorance and bigotry exists amongst educated people as well! Well, that shows that sometimes a formal education is deficient!

And that elitist attitude is one of the reasons why I didn't go to med school b/c I also found a lot of that narrow minded bigoted attitude among my class mates. What a disappointment that was!

One of the main reasons why I don't like elitism or bigotry, b/c I internalized my very excellent formal education which taught me that the belief that one is better than another b/c of what ever reason is false. Elitism, a form of bigotry is an illusion that the immature ego usually plays on itself to make up for it's own beliefs of deficiencies.

Elitism is usually found amongst the mediocre minds that never aspire to greatness of love, acceptance, and respect for all people! That includes teenage mothers, high school drop outs, and even people who can only get into a junior college!

And for many nursing is a calling! Just as for many becoming a doctor or a PA is a calling, not just a career. Shouldn't their be something deeper than doing something for prestige and money? To say that nursing is not a calling, but a career is a sweeping generalization, certainly one that an educated person shouldn't make.

The parts of your post that I liked is that you expressed concern for nurses or fellow human beings which is an altruistic act of good will! I like stuff like that and that's why I want to be a nurse! I also liked that you pointed out how nurses are often used and abused by hospital admin and their colleagues! And that is something that I don't want to deal with b/c I am a human being and deserve respect as such and yes my formal educated has helped me stand for nothing less. It has strengthened my sense of justice and helped refine my intellect. Education has the potential to liberate the mind! And a truly free mind and open heart would never castigate other human beings for any perceived lack.

But, as you said that unfortunate snobbery exists and maybe (it would be hard to test) if the bar was "higher", there'd be less disrespect. Good luck and many wishes of success on your path,

J

Specializes in CCU, CVICU, ER.

You make some very good points.

why are we consistently understaffed and expected to do not just our job, but everyone elses job as well. If there is no secretary, who has to answer the phones and type in orders? The nurse. If the pharmacy has not filled the Omnicell with certain medications, who has to run to the Pharmacy to pick up the medication? The nurse. When transport is busy, who has to run patients back and forth to radiology? The nurse. If the aid is busy and a patient has soiled the entire bed, who is expected to clean the patient and change the bed? The nurse.

This is very true. Someone has to be the person who makes sure it all gets done and fills in the periodic gap and that generally is the nurse. And that's fine. It's a problem when the gaps aren't just periodic and the nurse is expected to do an impossible amount of work. It's a problem when the amount of time a nurse's various responsibilities actually take are not realistically accounted for.

In this regard, nurses have little professional influence. When nurses make it known that work conditions are such that they feel patient care may be compromised, they are told that they just need to make it work or move on. I don't have confidence that having a higher educational requirement would remedy this chronic issue.

...... there is no nursing shortage. Hospitals understaff and pay us less then we should receive because we just take it. Nurses get burned out and leave the profession,

In my opinion, the understaffing issue is bigger than the pay issue. I don't care how great the pay is if it's near impossible to give quality care.

".... job dominated by high school dropouts, teenage mothers, and people who could only get into a community college..."

This is certainly a provocative sentiment expresseed by your colleagues. There is some truth to it. Nursing has a strong and proud tradition of being a field where anyone, even those who may have had a slow start, can "make good" - prove themselves to be responsible and have a stable career.

It's not that the qualifications are so low that high school dropouts can easily become nurses. Butn ursing has been a field where a person could become qualified in just a few years and be able to earn decent money in a stable career. Once someone was ready to buckle down and get serious, they could go from GED to working nurse in just two to four years (I'm including both LPN and RN).

And it is true you don't need to qualify for university in order to be accepted to nursing school, so yes, there are lots of nurses who "could only get into community college." Surely, with study, they could be qualified, but many aren't and decide that that's not a goal of theirs.

With the current shortage of nursing school spaces, the competition and wait to get into programs has increased exponentially, but not long ago, if you passed the pre-reqs with decent grades, you could pretty much count on acceptance to nursing school. Getting through school, of course, is a whole other ball of wax.

Specializes in NA and NT on 28 possible units.

Greetings,

This is a very interesting topic that pulls on the heart strings of many people who are concerned about the state of our profession. I don't have the time to read through all 400+ posts but I've read at least the last bunch on this page and the beginning page.

Whether on one side of the issue or the other, the Fact that we are talking about the issue of having a common entry into practice is encouraging. Unfortunately, this has been going on for over 3 decades with no more progress than when the idea was first proposed. Change was not overwhelming met with praise and as such, our profession has not upgraded its requirements.

Does it irk me to no end that I'm in one of the top 5 Nursing schools in the country and I'll make the same as a RN out of the local community college and "initially" there is no difference in pay? Heck yes it does!

Does it irk me to no end that I'm spending 20,000$/year for four years of Nursing school? Not really, because I understand the value of my education and I believe it to be 'worth it' in the end. HOWEVER, when a hospital ''''insults'''' me with "oh we offer tuition reimbursement up to 8,000...10,000...or 15,000$! Oh look at how much we are helping you!" ..........

I FEEL LIKE ITS A SLAP IN THE FACE! Not every RN that graduates goes to community college and spends a ''total'' of 10,000$ on their education. I'm spending almost 80,000$! btw, I have loans for about 85% of it and "I'm" paying ALL of them back on my RN salary starting in May 2009. No special handouts, just hard work.

Consequently, I feel that things should be more individualized in terms of tuition reimbursement and starting pay as such. I understand thats not going to happen and it was my CHOICE to attend the University of Michigan and not my local community college, and I'm perfectly ok with that. What comforts me is that when I apply for my first nursing job, I will have an advantage just being BSN prepared, as well as going to a top school. Also, a BSN does allow opportunities for advancement in the way of specialty areas, management (and not Just ANM's, or Nurse Managers, but Directors, Vice Presidents, COO's, CFO's, and CEO's), and prepares you with a foundation for attending graduate school for a Masters/Professional degree of some sort.

Long term it makes a difference and pays dividends. I believe that, and that is part of the reason I 'chose' this path. While having a higher entry level into practice is great, the ones that truly value a Bachelor's or more education, they will go beyond what is expected to get an RN. So yes, more entry req.'s would be great, but if you are self-motivated and impassioned, you will do more and achieve more.

The Bottom Line is, its not about 'us,' it's about our patients. Lets keep that ultimate goal in mind! If you are not being treated appropriately on your unit, use the channels of quality improvement your hospital offers. If that does not work, report it to your local regulating branch of Joint Commission, etc. As a last resort, as you all know, there is a Nursing Shortage...so switch hospitals/health systems/units/specialties and do/find a place/area that better serves your life needs, requirements, and desires within the scope of this profession. Or, outside of it IF it does not suffice.

Have a great day! ...back to my MedSurg clinical/class studies...

Go Blue!

-Michigan Man 09

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