"Don't waste your time getting your BSN..."

amzyRN · Oct 10, 2007

You make some very good points.
This is very true. Someone has to be the person who makes sure it all gets done and fills in the periodic gap and that generally is the nurse. And that's fine. It's a problem when the gaps aren't just periodic and the nurse is expected to do an impossible amount of work. It's a problem when the amount of time a nurse's various responsibilities actually take are not realistically accounted for.
In this regard, nurses have little professional influence. When nurses make it known that work conditions are such that they feel patient care may be compromised, they are told that they just need to make it work or move on. I don't have confidence that having a higher educational requirement would remedy this chronic issue.
In my opinion, the understaffing issue is bigger than the pay issue. I don't care how great the pay is if it's near impossible to give quality care.
This is certainly a provocative sentiment expresseed by your colleagues. There is some truth to it. Nursing has a strong and proud tradition of being a field where anyone, even those who may have had a slow start, can "make good" - prove themselves to be responsible and have a stable career.
It's not that the qualifications are so low that high school dropouts can easily become nurses. Butn ursing has been a field where a person could become qualified in just a few years and be able to earn decent money in a stable career. Once someone was ready to buckle down and get serious, they could go from GED to working nurse in just two to four years (I'm including both LPN and RN).
And it is true you don't need to qualify for university in order to be accepted to nursing school, so yes, there are lots of nurses who "could only get into community college." Surely, with study, they could be qualified, but many aren't and decide that that's not a goal of theirs.
With the current shortage of nursing school spaces, the competition and wait to get into programs has increased exponentially, but not long ago, if you passed the pre-reqs with decent grades, you could pretty much count on acceptance to nursing school. Getting through school, of course, is a whole other ball of wax.

I think you are correct to point out that there is much more competition for nursing programs now. Particularly BSN programs that are (here in CA anyway) almost as tough to get into as med school, PA school, Pharm school etc. Also, you point out that the disrespect, poor working conditions (basically oppression) etc. that happens to nurses is more than an educational thing per se.

In fact, I think that it has to do with the fact that nursing has traditionally been a female dominated field, which I think another person mentioned before, that encourages oppression. This is because of the pathology in our culture to oppress others who have less status (people of color, the poor, women, homosexuals, etc.) and the nursing profession comprises many of these oppressed groups, thus it has less status and less respect. On the other hand, medicine, pharmacy, PAs, and other male dominated fields, particularly dominated by white, upper middle class, heterosexual males is afforded greater status. Thus they get more respect. And honestly, this has been something that I have though about before going into nursing, that I will be less respected than if I went to med school. But, in the end the philosophy of the profession inspires me more than medicine and I believe it has a greater potential to do more good, particularly due to the holistic approach. And additionally the length of time that MDs train and hours put in, to me, are just too much. A perfect route for me to do the most good is nurse practitioner.

Also, someone above noted that there seems to be a revolving door for RNs and I think that will remain as it is until conditions are improved. Theoretically, more education will elevate status and give a more effective voice for change b/c people become unwilling to live on their knees their whole life. Great discussion!

J

HudsonValleyRN, BSN · Oct 11, 2007

jjjoy, LPN · Oct 11, 2007

elevating our level of education would be a positive step in the right direction.

While I agree that a higher educational level for entry to nursing might help its professional image, I don't see that it would help improve the working conditions most nurses face. When nurses make it known that work conditions are such that they feel patient care may be compromised, they are often told that they just need to make it work or move on.

Many nurses are choosing to move on, leaving the miserable workplace even more understaffed which makes the place more miserable and more nurses leave. And then the problem of understaffing is blamed on a nursing shortage and facilities lobby for the right to hire foreign staff.

And I don't even know if facilities and we as paying consumers (either out of pocket or through insurance) can afford to pay truly competitive wages (to keep BSNs from leaving for less stressful, less physical better paid work) for the kind of staffing that would create a better work environment for nurses.

I don't have confidence that having a higher educational requirement would remedy this chronic issue.

emsmom06 · Oct 11, 2007

It's an associates degree in nursing.

sharona97, BSN, RN · Oct 11, 2007

My nursing hat goes off to all the oppressed people on their knees who have gotten up and into a place of education that makes a difference in their life. One of these people is aself onfident nurse that graduated from a school that allowed growth in education. This oppressed person has beome an excellent bedside nurse with a gift of knowledge, recognizing a sick patient, and offers the correct course of action needed to help the sick. H/She has prided themselves on the compassion they truly feel is paramount to their chosen profession.

Teachers teach, Nurses nurse, Managers manage, Physicians heal. The title does not make the person the person makes the title, and might I add standing on their own two feet.

Not all professionals were oppressed people at one time as your post(s) suggest. How and why people choose their career is far and above oppression. IMHO, if this were the case then why would people such as yourselves go into an arena of study where your position rests that it all started from oppressed people.

To get a look at how this medical profession has changed for the better I encourage you to take a tour of the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN and let this bb know all about the oppressed people who started caring about the sick and the obvious differences that have developed over time. It is called growth. And to speak of oppression in the nursing arena as I have seen posted I would certainly call it slander.

Not all nursing professionals take to bedside care, and directpatientcare, yet I've not seen a bedside, patient care nurse without dignity and support fromtherecolleagues Colleagues who do not whine about doctor's hours or practicum over theory, that is just an excuse for saying I want to be better than you but don't want to work that hard. So it's one side of the fence or the other in my opinion,alas a choice made not a slanderish statement how it all began.

amzyRN · Oct 12, 2007

While I agree that a higher educational level for entry to nursing might help its professional image, I don't see that it would help improve the working conditions most nurses face. When nurses make it known that work conditions are such that they feel patient care may be compromised, they are often told that they just need to make it work or move on.
Many nurses are choosing to move on, leaving the miserable workplace even more understaffed which makes the place more miserable and more nurses leave. And then the problem of understaffing is blamed on a nursing shortage and facilities lobby for the right to hire foreign staff.
And I don't even know if facilities and we as paying consumers (either out of pocket or through insurance) can afford to pay truly competitive wages (to keep BSNs from leaving for less stressful, less physical better paid work) for the kind of staffing that would create a better work environment for nurses.
I don't have confidence that having a higher educational requirement would remedy this chronic issue.

I think insurance companies and the state could provide adequate wages for nurses, but they'd rather line their own pockets. As fas as the health care crisis goes, I think it's not a lack of money, it's sheer greed at the expense of human life. In fact, a friend of mine just told me that a hospital here in S.F. paid strike nurses 90 dollars and hour to replace the nurses who went on strike. They would actually pay more to an outsider than actually improve conditions. So, I don't think it's a lack of funds, just the sickest greed imaginable.

J

amzyRN · Oct 12, 2007

My nursing hat goes off to all the oppressed people on their knees who have gotten up and into a place of education that makes a difference in their life. One of these people is aself onfident nurse that graduated from a school that allowed growth in education. This oppressed person has beome an excellent bedside nurse with a gift of knowledge, recognizing a sick patient, and offers the correct course of action needed to help the sick. H/She has prided themselves on the compassion they truly feel is paramount to their chosen profession.
Teachers teach, Nurses nurse, Managers manage, Physicians heal. The title does not make the person the person makes the title, and might I add standing on their own two feet.
Not all professionals were oppressed people at one time as your post(s) suggest. How and why people choose their career is far and above oppression. IMHO, if this were the case then why would people such as yourselves go into an arena of study where your position rests that it all started from oppressed people.
To get a look at how this medical profession has changed for the better I encourage you to take a tour of the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN and let this bb know all about the oppressed people who started caring about the sick and the obvious differences that have developed over time. It is called growth. And to speak of oppression in the nursing arena as I have seen posted I would certainly call it slander.
Not all nursing professionals take to bedside care, and directpatientcare, yet I've not seen a bedside, patient care nurse without dignity and support fromtherecolleagues Colleagues who do not whine about doctor's hours or practicum over theory, that is just an excuse for saying I want to be better than you but don't want to work that hard. So it's one side of the fence or the other in my opinion,alas a choice made not a slanderish statement how it all began.

By oppression, I was mainly referring to the fact that women have been oppressed here in this country and elsewhere and that they have comprised the bulk of the nursing profession and thus the oppression transfers over to the profession in general. One definition of "oppressed" is bearing a heavy burden of work or difficulties or responsibilities. And yeah, I still think women are oppressed in general, though some manage to make it through if they are willing to kiss the but of the establishment, in my opinion. And, I don't think my statement about oppression is "slanderish" as slander is A type of defamation. Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community. And there is or was no intended offense in my posts.

J

sharona97, BSN, RN · Oct 12, 2007

Thank you for replying. I see you do understand the definition of slander/defamation. Oppressed people on their knees IMHO needs further clarification then along with the statements of people of color, etc. being oppressed. Not all are woman, or oppressed. Giving a generalized definition of oppression does not take away the statements made earlier, this my point.

And if you still believe that woman are oppressed in this day and age of opportunity, such as the ones you have been fortunate enough to also receive, I totally disagree. Woman, homeless persons, children, victims of abuse, age discrimination, these are things I feel justify oppression. Not where they came from to start with and make do or better themselves. And yes that means an education from a school. A university education is ideal to some, but there are those folks who pay attention to the big picture and give it their all and actually do quite well in our society, despite how hard it may have beeen for them. People in my opinion who don't need attitude adjustments. I too, need to check myself daily as I care for others, I believe that is the big picture.

We are adults now. We have a choice and if another individual chooses to take a different road than yours, does not mean they are any lesser of an individual, or incapable of performing educated tasks learned and applied.

HudsonValleyRN, BSN · Oct 12, 2007

sharona97, BSN, RN · Oct 12, 2007

To Preppygirl,

My answer is reread post #411 please.

Women seldom entered fields of doctrate, science, years ago, but there are historical figures who tredged a pathway.

There are many Pharm-D's, pharmacists and doctors today who are female and well respected by their colleagues.

I do no think it is right to categorize or generalize "people as described verbatum in post #411" as a less respected individual, but that is my opinion.

If you want to be a doctor, then be a doctor or not. Because of the time restraints it imposes on that particular profession...........

I still stand sit or get off the fence.

Thank you for reply, I hope this clears up any confusion as to whom I was speaking to and in what context that clearly disturbed me.

Sharona

RNDave · Oct 12, 2007

:deadhorse

amzyRN · Oct 12, 2007

Thank you for replying. I see you do understand the definition of slander/defamation. Oppressed people on their knees IMHO needs further clarification then along with the statements of people of color, etc. being oppressed. Not all are woman, or oppressed. Giving a generalized definition of oppression does not take away the statements made earlier, this my point.
And if you still believe that woman are oppressed in this day and age of opportunity, such as the ones you have been fortunate enough to also receive, I totally disagree. Woman, homeless persons, children, victims of abuse, age discrimination, these are things I feel justify oppression. Not where they came from to start with and make do or better themselves. And yes that means an education from a school. A university education is ideal to some, but there are those folks who pay attention to the big picture and give it their all and actually do quite well in our society, despite how hard it may have beeen for them. People in my opinion who don't need attitude adjustments. I too, need to check myself daily as I care for others, I believe that is the big picture.
We are adults now. We have a choice and if another individual chooses to take a different road than yours, does not mean they are any lesser of an individual, or incapable of performing educated tasks learned and applied.

Hmmm, not quite sure we are on the same page here. Slander, by the way is spoken defamatory statements with the intent of damaging a person's reputation. Again, slander is a spoken (not written) statement with the intent of doing harm, essentially. A written defamatory statement with intent to harm a persons character is called libel. I'm not committing libel here by saying that when many nurses are burdened with poor working conditions and disrespect it is a form of oppression, by definition.

And, yes I think it may be due to the fact that the bulk of nurses (not all) are women and that may be why. Also, since nursing has been viewed as a more "blue collar" profession, which have been less respected than "white collar" professions, it is not as respected as a profession.

And who makes up the blue collar professions? Do people from "high status" back grounds or "low status" back grounds make up these professions? If we were to compare the number of women, non-whites, persons from lower income families etc. in the medical profession versus the nursing profession, what would we find? Do you think we'd find more upper class white men as nurses? I don't think so.

So, again I am making the claim that b/c the nursing profession has attracted persons from these oppressed groups (as a rule not the exceptions), it as a profession will be and is less respected.

Also, I personally have had the opportunity of a higher education (thank the goddess!) and yet I am still a member of an oppressed group, women. If you are trying to tell me that women are not oppressed (as a group) or that the nursing profession is not composed of more "minority" groups than other more respected professions, I'd respectfully ask you to look again. Being a member of an oppressed group doesn't mean that they are some how less valuable as a human being or that they will necessarily be hindered by it. Pride can blind us to the facts. And by the way, I'm not saying things are not changing, but they've got a long way to go! Thanks much for your input!