"Don't waste your time getting your BSN..."

llg, PhD, RN · Oct 20, 2007

The American Association of Colleges of Nursing has a position statement on the BSN as entry to practice. You can check it out here: http://www.aacn.nche.edu/Publications/positions/baccmin.htm
I believe that they cite some very good examples that support the BSN as minimum entry to practice. As a link on this page, they also have a statement on ADNs, stating that they do not seek to limit the practice of ADNs, but that they do "seek to define distinct scopes of practice congruent with educational preparation". http://www.aacn.nche.edu/Media/FactSheets/ADNFacts.htm
Perhaps this is what we need to work toward.

I should probably stay out of this discussion (for my sanity) ... but I agree with this general approach. I think it would be a mistake to elimante the ADN, but I definitely think we need to clarify the purposes of each level of education and make it clear what types of roles are the focus of each type of educational program.

Having so many different types of educational programs in nursing (not just at the entry level, but also at the advanced level) produces overlaps and confusion that is not good for the profession. We need to clarify what the "product" is of each type of education.

leslie :-D · Oct 20, 2007

Also, you point out that the disrespect, poor working conditions (basically oppression) etc. that happens to nurses is more than an educational thing per se.
In fact, I think that it has to do with the fact that nursing has traditionally been a female dominated field, which I think another person mentioned before, that encourages oppression. This is because of the pathology in our culture to oppress others who have less status (people of color, the poor, women, homosexuals, etc.) and the nursing profession comprises many of these oppressed groups, thus it has less status and less respect. On the other hand, medicine, pharmacy, PAs, and other male dominated fields, particularly dominated by white, upper middle class, heterosexual males is afforded greater status. Thus they get more respect. And honestly, this has been something that I have though about before going into nursing, that I will be less respected than if I went to med school. But, in the end the philosophy of the profession inspires me more than medicine and I believe it has a greater potential to do more good, particularly due to the holistic approach. And additionally the length of time that MDs train and hours put in, to me, are just too much. A perfect route for me to do the most good is nurse practitioner.

i fully understand and agree with this.

many of nursing's ambiguities and image problems, are r/t the oppressed status we have endured as women.

sometimes when a male md is snippy with me, i don't know if i am reacting as a nurse or woman.

conversely, when i observe a male md to have an ego as big as chrysler, i don't know if i am responding to the pretentiousness of an allegedly superior title, or to the social conditioning of a man being superior to a woman.

women and nurses as a whole, are not taken seriously (and therefore, oppressed).

that is why i have maintained that the bsn is too simplistic a solution.

traditionally, "men" are cool, calm, and know how/when to assert themselves.

there is an absence of emotional drama when confronted with a stressful situation.

and traditionally, "women" are emotional, passive-aggressive and wishy-washy.

we have been raised to be compliant and complacent.

when you take a cultural upbringing and bring it to a profession, the same type of oppression will persist.

this is why we see so many of our brothers, getting ahead in nsg.

they have been raised in knowing how to competently market themselves.

afterall, they are the breadwinners, aren't they? (sarcasm)

compounding this problem, when a woman opts to market herself, and God forbid, she become aggressive, she is immediately labeled in a disparaging way.

i think these outdated societal roles, are manifesting itself through the lateral violence that we see day in and day out.

we have not been taught effectively in how to (unemotionally) fight for our rights.

instinctively, many of us become again, compliant and complacent.

and the frustration is taken out on one another.

there are so many cultural factors involved here.

i think as women and female nurses, a major reform is necessary.

that means saying and being, no more.

i'm sick to death of the doormat mentality of our sisters.

i support an androgynous affiliation, where we can say what we mean, and mean what we say....without the drama.

no more wishy washy, whining whimpering.

once you become emotional, you lose control of your situation.

sorry ladies, but that's what we have always been expected to do, and be.

only we can change our behaviors and our responses to them.

with that type of newfound self-respect, much more will fall into place.

that, i know.

so yeah, go for the bsn.

it will help a little.

but speaking as one of the oppressed, we have a lot more to do.

leslie

Tweety, BSN, RN · Oct 20, 2007

I should probably stay out of this discussion (for my sanity) ... but I agree with this general approach. I think it would be a mistake to elimante the ADN, but I definitely think we need to clarify the purposes of each level of education and make it clear what types of roles are the focus of each type of educational program.
Having so many different types of educational programs in nursing (not just at the entry level, but also at the advanced level) produces overlaps and confusion that is not good for the profession. We need to clarify what the "product" is of each type of education.

I've always agree with this approach as well.

I've always thought it a bit odd that two educational levels take the same exame and do the exact same thing.

Wonder why nursing can't be like physical therapists that have two distinct job descriptions for their associate degreed therapists and their bachelarreate graduates.

pengoo2008 · Nov 14, 2007

I'm a senior BSN student at a fairly big public university. I love my program. It is damn challenging but the profs are (mostly) great. I don't have an ADN. Pretty typical college student (well, except for the going out and having fun- that doesn't happen as much since I'm in nursing haha)

I believe that ADNs, LPNs, Diplomas and BSNs can be awful or awesome nurses. I think this has little to do with the degree they get, and more to do with the people they are.

However, I believe a four year degree sets a professional standard for the entire profession of nursing that simply cannot be ignored.

I realize on an individual basis, a LPN or ADN may work better for an individual but for the PROFESSION BSNs command a higher level of respect because they obtain a higher level of education. This respect is something that nurses do not get and we should really be doing all that is in our power to obtain it because we deserve it.

The reality is a 2 year degree does not help to garner the respect or the wages a professional nurse deserves.

So, in interest of the PROFESSION and not the INDIVIDUAL, I throw my support behind the BSN degree.

And also....people...nurses aren't "trained"...we are educated. We aren't circus monkeys!!! Sorry that is such a pet peeve.

scooterRN52 · Nov 14, 2007

I am an RN with an ADN, I have worked M/S, ER, ICU, Charge positions, and supervision and can tell you there is not any difference in ADN and BSN when it comes to staff nursing. In fact ADNs get more hands on during their schooling than BSNs. There are really not that many more nursing oriented classes in the BSN program, but there are more "support" classes. I find the push for BSN entry level ridiculous, we all have to pass the same boards. I do not look down on anyone for pushing for increased education but I do look down on paying BSNs more for doing the same job as ADNs.

I agree with you. I am an ADN and I wear several hats and do everything a BSN

does and sometimes more. I think nurses who want to work the floor as I call it or

clinical do not need more than 2 years. A BSN should not make more money either. Thank-you

Conqueror+, BSN, RN · Nov 14, 2007

I'm a senior BSN student at a fairly big public university.
And also....people...nurses aren't "trained"...we are educated. We aren't circus monkeys!!! Sorry that is such a pet peeve.

This is NOT an attack just an observation. This statement is indicative of the type of education that a BSN candidate receives. You will never find a floor nurse up to her eyeballs in alligators saying that she is educated to be a nurse. Education happens in classrooms. Nursing for many of us is a hands on in the trenches kind of thing. Its like saying that a marine is educated to do their job. Sounds funny doesn't it ? I do believe that some uniformity is needed in nursing education. However, respect among levels would accomplish far more. I have been doing this for nearly 14 years and I have seen nurses do more damage to each other than "them" or "they". Out of curiosity I researched reqs for nursing LPN and RN programs in many states and I was AMAZED at the differences from one program to the next. How can you have a 10 month all inclusive PN program over here and a 2 year associates degree PN program with pre req's over there? Then you have 2 yr AS AAS ADN Diploma BSN MSN APRN NP Nurse Midwife and so on Im dizzy just thinking about it. :uhoh3: :uhoh3: :uhoh3: :uhoh3: :uhoh3: :uhoh3: WTH?

scooterRN52 · Nov 14, 2007

This is NOT an attack just an observation. This statement is indicative of the type of education that a BSN candidate receives. You will never find a floor nurse up to her eyeballs in alligators saying that she is educated to be a nurse. Education happens in classrooms. Nursing for many of us is a hands on in the trenches kind of thing. Its like saying that a marine is educated to do their job. Sounds funny doesn't it ? I do believe that some uniformity is needed in nursing education. However, respect among levels would accomplish far more. I have been doing this for nearly 14 years and I have seen nurses do more damage to each other than "them" or "they". Out of curiosity I researched reqs for nursing LPN and RN programs in many states and I was AMAZED at the differences from one program to the next. How can you have a 10 month all inclusive PN program over here and a 2 year associates degree PN program with pre req's over there? Then you have 2 yr AS AAS ADN Diploma BSN MSN APRN NP Nurse Midwife and so on Im dizzy just thinking about it. :uhoh3::uhoh3::uhoh3: WTH?

Thank-you Pageantnurse

scooterRN52 · Nov 14, 2007

Well, on that note then, I'm also very confused as to what Sharona97 is trying to say. Why would specific references to groups of people that have been historically oppressed disgust you? Even in 2007, in this great nation, there are still marginalized groups of people that continue to be oppressed. Do you really think that racism, sexism, ageism, and other prejudices no longer exist and are no longer acted upon? Just because laws are now in place to protect certain groups does not mean that it no longer exists.
Changing gears, I wouldn't withhold my respect of a nurse just because the nurse lacked a certain level of education. There are many ADN nurses that I completely respect and admire. In fact, I respect all people on a certain level. After considering the true definition of respect, I have to admit that I don't think education has much to do with respect on the individual level. Any competent nurse should have the ability to earn the respect of the individual patient. On a societal level, "respect" is much more complex and intangible (i.e.- the factors that influence the idea of "respecting" a specific group, such as nurses). Perhaps "respect" isn't even the right word for this concept. But there is something that causes society to place a greater value on certain professions and I believe that education is definitely a factor.
The American Association of Colleges of Nursing has a position statement on the BSN as entry to practice. You can check it out here: http://www.aacn.nche.edu/Publications/positions/baccmin.htm
I believe that they cite some very good examples that support the BSN as minimum entry to practice. As a link on this page, they also have a statement on ADNs, stating that they do not seek to limit the practice of ADNs, but that they do "seek to define distinct scopes of practice congruent with educational preparation". http://www.aacn.nche.edu/Media/FactSheets/ADNFacts.htm
Perhaps this is what we need to work toward.

We all take the same board of nursing exam and our license reads professional nurse so I think we are all the same. BSN and ADN. Actually I took boards 18 years ago that lasted 2 days and not 75-100 questions on a computer. My OCN

test was 165 questions. Nusing will never get respect because it is trying to be something it isin't.

dianacs · Nov 14, 2007

And also....people...nurses aren't "trained"...we are educated. We aren't circus monkeys!!! Sorry that is such a pet peeve.

Hear, hear! I totally agree!

HealthyRN · Nov 14, 2007

I agree with you. I am an ADN and I wear several hats and do everything a BSN
does and sometimes more. I think nurses who want to work the floor as I call it or
clinical do not need more than 2 years. A BSN should not make more money either. Thank-you

In most fields, people with more education get paid more than their counterparts with less education doing the same job. Teachers and engineers are just two examples that I can think of off the top of my head, but believe me, this is not a novel phenomenon. Education should be rewarded, just as extra certifications often are.

We do both take the same boards. The purpose of my last post that you quoted was to say that perhaps the solution is not to elimate ADN programs altogether, but to define the roles of the ADN versus BSN nurse. Currently, there are no defined roles, which is why we are having this discussion.

And what exactly do you mean by nursing trying to be something it is not? A respected profession on par with other medical professionals? Or is that too much to hope for?

scooterRN52 · Nov 15, 2007

Hear, hear! I totally agree!

Sorry I beg to differ on that note. The problem with most BSN's graduating is that they lack the neccessary training needed to work on the floor and don't know how to take care of patients. I had a hospital program and college, thank goodness I had the hospital program because I learned more there. There is something lacking in todays nsg. programs.

scooterRN52 · Nov 15, 2007

In most fields, people with more education get paid more than their counterparts with less education doing the same job. Teachers and engineers are just two examples that I can think of off the top of my head, but believe me, this is not a novel phenomenon. Education should be rewarded, just as extra certifications often are.
We do both take the same boards. The purpose of my last post that you quoted was to say that perhaps the solution is not to elimate ADN programs altogether, but to define the roles of the ADN versus BSN nurse. Currently, there are no defined roles, which is why we are having this discussion.
And what exactly do you mean by nursing trying to be something it is not? A respected profession on par with other medical professionals? Or is that too much to hope for?

What will be done with all the diploma and ADN nurses out there? Will they be thrown to the wolves? They should be grandfatherd in.