"Don't waste your time getting your BSN..."

[HeartsOpenWide]

People are always trying to tell me that I am going to waste my time by not stopping after getting my ASN. They say that getting your BSN just gets you management positions and that it does not pay more. I am going for my masters so I can be a CNM, so I have to have my BSN anyway but, how could it be true that a person with a BSN gets the same as a person with a ASN? (Aside from the fact that working in different dept can make a difference)

[leslie :-D]

I truly feel that some in this forum are jumping to conclusions in response to some of our posts. BSN nurses are not insulting, or blaming ADN's for all the problems in the nursing profession. I do agree with you that many of the problems in the nursing profession stem from it being a predominately female profession. However, you say we need to stop "squabbling" among ourselves. If we all had the same entry level education, the "squabbling" would end. I am not saying that making the BSN entry level will solve all the issues in the nursing profession, but it is a step in the right direction.

you know preppy, it makes sense that higher ed=more respect.

when i think of all the professions that require a minimum of a bachelor's, i understand your rationale.

but over the yrs, i've just seen so much of the most backstabbing, juvenile behavior, that it leads me to believe that the nsg profession would be exempt from earning this desired respect.

if the bsn exemplified all things proper and worthy, why are there so many bsn nurses who are just as responsible for the atrocities of their sister nurses?

i am not saying that it is just bsn's.

it clearly is not.

but it is sooooo many nurses that get some cheap thrill in tearing their colleagues down.

these behaviors permeate all social and educational statuses.

i have thought this through for a long time.

the image of nsg bothers me tremendously.

and i truly thought that unity could be achieved by all of us getting a minimum of a bsn.

i do not believe that to be the case anymore.

on this bb, i have been embarrassed by posts from nurses who were adn's and bsn's.

in other words, a degree is not going to command automatic respect from others.

not as long as these chronically vicious behaviors continue in driving away nurses by the droves.

it's time we stopped blaming a lack of the bsn, as the reason for our division.

it goes so much deeper than that.

until we become accountable to ourselves, nothing will change.

leslie

[Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN]

I have met and worked with many MD's that are not that smart, but since they have the education, they and the profession receive automatic respect. Are auto mechanics, nurses aids, and secretaries as respected as doctors, lawyers, and engineers? No. Why? They have less education, or no formal education. The nursing profession is skating the line between blue and white collar. Having nurses who received their training through vocational schools and community colleges is bringing the profession down in the eyes of our communities, and our collegues.

I knew, eventually, it would take a post like this to completely turn me off from this thread.

I'll continue with my education, because it's what i want to do, has nothing to with others' respect or whatever. And along the way, i will respect nursing (and other careers, aside from healthcare) as a group, and will not seek to further divide the profession by alienating the people that belong to it!

Good night

[HudsonValleyRN, BSN]

[suzy253, RN]

Didn't mean to turn you off, just stating my opinion. I am curious though, if the BSN is so unnecessary, and being an LPN is good enough...so much so that my post offended you, why are you continuing your education? You say you are not doing it for the respect of others. Why is it wrong to want our collegues and our patients to show us the respect we deserve? We should not just be happy for whatever we are given, we should demand more. More respect, more compensation, and more autonomy. I wish you the best in finishing your degree.

This proud diploma grad gets tons of respect from her colleagues and patients.

[HudsonValleyRN, BSN]

This proud diploma grad gets tons of respect from her colleagues and patients.

I'm glad you do, you absolutely deserve it. Sadly, however, this is not the case for all nurses. :balloons:

[caroladybelle, BSN, RN]

Didn't mean to turn you off, just stating my opinion. I am curious though, if the BSN is so unnecessary, and being an LPN is good enough...so much so that my post offended you, why are you continuing your education? You say you are not doing it for the respect of others. Why is it wrong to want our collegues and our patients to show us the respect we deserve? We should not just be happy for whatever we are given, we should demand more. More respect, more compensation, and more autonomy. I wish you the best in finishing your degree.

Your patients and collegues should respect us for what we bring to their care....and that is not dependant on our degree.

Most of the people that I grew up/spend time with don't know what educational requirements there are to nursing, and furthermore, do not care. They only care as to whether one is a good, knowledgeable nurse that they feel is safe and diligent. And that has little to do with advanced degrees.

I currently work in a internationally recognized research facility with an internationally diverse staff and clientele. Despite my traveler status, I have people coming to me for information or assistance. Not one has treated me as a lesser individual because of my degree....it does not even rate as a consideration. I do not have any additional lack of autonomy. Within a short period of time, I was offered a permanent job and am considering it.

If one personally does not feel adequately respected as a nurse.....perhaps they need to change employers /coworkers, or even their own behavior to garner that respect. If the only way that one can feel "respected" is to get a different degree, one has a bigger problem than education degree.

Why does Maria seek additional education? For the very same reasons that many people seek education. For the same reason that the major in English or Journalism decides to have a Masters instead of a Bachelor's, even when they may not work in an area where appreciably increases pay. For the same reason that nurses get IV certification or official oncology certification, CEN, or CCRN. For the same reason than many of us go to conventions for our specialities, network at CEU events, or do presentations, even though we are not required to do so nor paid more for it. At my last certification renewal, I had over 178 CEUs that qualified, and an additional 40 that did not get included. I did not do this for pay.

Some of us choose to do these things for the heck of it, because we are interested in the topic and because we want to do them. We do not require "a reason". Though some of us do it because in 20-25 years, we may need a desk job where it might be of benefit.

[jjjoy, LPN]

I have met and worked with many MD's that are not that smart, but since they have the education, they and the profession receive automatic respect. Are auto mechanics, nurses aids, and secretaries as respected as doctors, lawyers, and engineers? No. Why? They have less education, or no formal education. The nursing profession is skating the line between blue and white collar. Having nurses who received their training through vocational schools and community colleges is bringing the profession down in the eyes of our communities, and our collegues.

I don't see this comment as being disrespectful. I think the point is that many people think nursing must be pretty easy if a bachelor's degree isn't required. It gets even more confusing when some programs don't seem to even require any college-level coursework (diploma programs, LVN technical schools). Of course, just because formal college credit may not be granted doesn't mean that the coursework IS easy, but I can see where people might make the assumption that such courses must be easier or else why isn't college credit given?

Some people argue that if all nurses had to have a bachelor's degree, then everyone would know that nurses had what it takes to get a uni degree, and that would improve the image of nursing. No one could assume that people only go into nursing when they can't get into university, which they would need to become doctors, or PTs or some health profession that gives the impression of being more highly educated.

And isn't the reality that many people did choose nursing over other fields because it didn't require four years of education? How many would've become PTs or OTs or something else entirely if that other field had offered the same type of salary with the same amount of educational investment that nursing offered?

Maybe those other fields are overtraining their ranks and they should be able to train up competent practitioners in 2-3 years without adding a bachelor's degree into the mix. I'd imagine initially requiring bach degrees started out more as weeder function. For example, several medical schools don't *require* bachelor's degrees to apply but most applicants do have bachelors. It makes them more competetive and by the time they've finished all the pre-reqs, they may as well apply them toward a bachelor's degree... just in case med school doesn't work out.

[suzy253, RN]

It gets even more confusing when some programs don't seem to even require any college-level coursework (diploma programs, LVN technical schools).

But diploma programs do require the associated sciences which are taken in colleges.

Again...what is your knowledge about diploma RN programs?

[HudsonValleyRN, BSN]

[caroladybelle, BSN, RN]

I feel that the character of the person makes one a great nurse, not necessarily their formal education. I will say that statistically the best nurses I have worked with have been the Diploma grads because of their extensive clinical time. However, they do not have a College Degree. My posts have been about impressions, perceptions, and assumptions that are made toward many nurses lack of formal education. I truly feel that the nurses who insist that a college degree is not needed and unnecessary maybe feel a little inferior due to not having more education. If valuing education makes me an "Intellectual snob", then I guess I'm an intellectual snob. I value all nurses, and I want all of us to be viewed as the dedicated professionals we truly ALL are.

The fact is, most of us value education. Obviously with over 200 hours of oncology and nursing education in that past 3.5 years means that I obviously value knowledge. The fact that I can describe the actions of ATGAM in treating hemo disease, high dose IL2 in care of met. melanoma, and the action of photopheresis in treating GVHD in hemo transplant patients, means that I am quite geeky. I also have an extensive knowledge of British history, art history, religious history and Greek Mythology.....all of which gets me tagged as an "intellectual".

I just don't feel that a BSN in nursing should be "required", I don't believe that it will help the patient ( the focus of our care ) , I do not feel it will increase public trust and respect (Gallop shows that we already have that, and consistantly outrank many "degree required" professionals") or makes a big difference in pay (as demonstrated by the ND experience).

What you are is not an "Intellectual snob" as there are plenty of people that are intellectual that do not have advanced degrees, Bill Gates among them. "Degree snob" maybe, but only you know whether that applies. But be aware that (as demonstrated by the Gallop polls supporting nurses, and by the large number of nurses coming here for work and patients flocking to the USA for care under our "lower standards") that alot of nurses and the public do not feel that way and are more accepting. Even you admit to the competence of the non-BSN nurse, but still insist that they need a higher degree to be "equal".

I, for one, get plenty of respect as a nurse. If others do not, well, again perhaps they need to examine their workplace, coworkers, employers and own behavior, and make some constructive changes.

[HealthyRN]

The fact is, most of us value education. Obviously with over 200 hours of oncology and nursing education in that past 3.5 years means that I obviously value knowledge. The fact that I can describe the actions of ATGAM in treating hemo disease, high dose IL2 in care of met. melanoma, and the action of photopheresis in treating GVHD in hemo transplant patients, means that I am quite geeky. I also have an extensive knowledge of British history, art history, religious history and Greek Mythology.....all of which gets me tagged as an "intellectual".

I just don't feel that a BSN in nursing should be "required", I don't believe that it will help the patient ( the focus of our care ) , I do not feel it will increase public trust and respect (Gallop shows that we already have that, and consistantly outrank many "degree required" professionals") or makes a big difference in pay (as demonstrated by the ND experience).

What you are is not an "Intellectual snob" as there are plenty of people that are intellectual that do not have advanced degrees, Bill Gates among them. "Degree snob" maybe, but only you know whether that applies. But be aware that (as demonstrated by the Gallop polls supporting nurses, and by the large number of nurses coming here for work and patients flocking to the USA for care under our "lower standards") that alot of nurses and the public do not feel that way and are more accepting. Even you admit to the competence of the non-BSN nurse, but still insist that they need a higher degree to be "equal".

I, for one, get plenty of respect as a nurse. If others do not, well, again perhaps they need to examine their workplace, coworkers, employers and own behavior, and make some constructive changes.

Valuing knowledge and valuing education are two different things. I don't believe that the nursing profession, as a whole, values education. If we did, why are we one of the only health professions that still requires only an associate's degree as entry to practice? Why are there people that argue that a university degree shouldn't be required to practice in a profession that has control over life or death situations?

Yes, there are very intelligent people out there who do not have college degrees. However, they are not typically in professions that have a need for set standards and competencies. Having a bachelor's degree doesn't magically make one intelligent, but it does put everyone the same page. I know what it means if someone has a bachelor's degree. I know that they had to meet certain requirements to gain entry into the university. I know that they were required to take general education courses. I know that they spent about four years earning their degree.

If a bachelor's degree is so worthless, why have so many other professions decided that it is the minimum requirement for entry? Why is it impressed upon our children that a bachelor's degree is almost like what having a high school diploma used to be?

[caroladybelle, BSN, RN]

Yes, there are very intelligent people out there who do not have college degrees. However, they are not typically in professions that have a need for set standards and competencies. Having a bachelor's degree doesn't magically make one intelligent, but it does put everyone the same page. I know what it means if someone has a bachelor's degree. I know that they had to meet certain requirements to gain entry into the university. I know that they were required to take general education courses. I know that they spent about four years earning their degree.

If a bachelor's degree is so worthless, why have so many other professions decided that it is the minimum requirement for entry? Why is it impressed upon our children that a bachelor's degree is almost like what having a high school diploma used to be?

First, I am not saying that a Bachelors degree is worthless....please point out where I have ever said that it is worthless.

However, many of the BSN-only crowd are implying that it is worthless, because it does not matter "more" than other degrees. Thus that devalues it, insinuating that education and knowledge is only good if it offers some material advantage, position, or elitism over others, instead valuing education for itself and the nonmaterial benfits that education and knowledge offers one.

Second, many of us as children have not had it impressed upon us that a college degree was "almost like having a high school diploma". We find knowledge more important than "degrees.

And third, as nurses, we have all passed the same NCLEX and have the Nursing Boards that have set down requirements and standards that ALL NURSING SCHOOLS, regardless of degree awarded, must attain or exceed. Requirements on amounts and nature of clinical studies, testing, etc. Thus we all are starting "on the same page", we know that we all have attained those uniform standards, and have been tested on those standards.

It actually puts us closer to being "on the same page" than some professions, such as journalism. Many professions do not have that test and those standards. A Bachelors from one place matters more than another, because there is not the uniformity.

As far as life and death situations - those are dealt with by nurses, but also EMTs, paramedics, military corpsmen, firemen, and police officers. They deal with life and death under much more stressful conditions and much less controlled situations, and do it quite successfully.