"Don't waste your time getting your BSN..."

azrn08 · Sep 13, 2007

ADN is Associates Degree of Nursing

Hope that helps

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Sep 13, 2007

Jerico,

Again, look at the states and nations that require a Bachelor's level nursing degree.

They do not have better pay, respect or conditions.

And you can review many of the posts about "Magnet" status - in mainly places it is like JCAHO reviews. The hopsital cleans and pretties up its numbers for a few weeks so they can have the coveted title of Magnet and things go back to "same old - same old". until next check.

I also do in fact get hired over many BSNs with equivalent experience. I do get paid more than quite a few of those I went to university with. Estimates - from THEM- I am in the top third. And probably half have Masters in their field.

And what does NP have to do with the price of tea in China. That is like comparing PAs to MDs - they are not equivalent jobs. An NP is not going to be a floor nurse, unless moonlighting for extra money.

Nurses need to be at the bedside providing care to fully assess the patient and provide the best care. RNs do that, not NPs. My job is to provide the best care to the patient because it is about THE PATIENT!!. Not prestigious titles or fancy degrees but about the care of the patient. Thus we need to focus on the care of the whole patient something that 3 year programs do quite well.

Why do I get picked over BSNs? By places like Hopkins, like MD Anderson, like Mass General. Because after reviewing my resume and especially references, they have seen that somehow I give better care to the patients than many other nurses.

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And respectfully,

And if you are going to quote me, please do it properly so that your words do not get confused with mine. I am certain that would have been discussed in school as appropriate.

2beanurse · Sep 13, 2007

It doesnt pay the same, where I am from if you have your bsn its an extra 50cents which is an extra 1000 dollars at the end. Look into your hospital human resources and ask them what the pay difference is.

suzy253, RN · Sep 13, 2007

i believe i do. a had a "diploma" program in engineering. nursing is doing any good by allowing less than a bsn to take the nclex.
a diploma in engineering is much different than a diploma in nursing.
"allowing" less than a bsn to take the nclex? latest statistics show that diploma educated grads are #1 in passing the nclex.
by allowing this we continue to give the impression nursing is "just a helping" profession rather than an autonomous stand "with the team" profession.
an impression (whether one likes or accepts it or not...) given by less than a bsn is that the person with the lesser degree is willing to give less than 100%. i know it isn't the intent of the person, but a true professional gives 110% and that includes the personal sacrifice to contribute to making the profession stand up to any scrutiny such as the public noting we allow incomplete nursing "degrees" into the bsn/registered nurse realm.
incomplete degrees? how can you say how much i give to my patients? i give a lot more than 100% of the 110% that the true professional gives. where do you get your facts?
don't tell me it does not matter to the public, either. if it didn't matter there would only be two year technical nurses. that is what the money hungry hospitals would like: little robots that have been taught technical tasks rather than thinking autonomously and with educated reason.
i've had many patients ask me where i graduated from, a diploma program that has been educating nurses for over 100 years, 100% pass rate on the nclex. and most of them know about my program a nd are delighted that a grad from my school is caring for them.
and why do you think other than bsn educated nurses are "little robots" being taught 'technical tasks'? what do you really think a diploma program is all about?
the best thing that ever happened to nursing and the registered professional nurse is magnet status.
if i were an adn or anything less than a bsn i'd be pissed if i had to take the same test and not have career security.
i think that is what the hostility is all about: we are not all on equal footing and until we do get there through grandfathering and ending the pooling of different depths of nursing education, the hostility between 2-3-4 and even lpn level nurses will never end. therefore unity can never begin.
the hostility is all about some bsn educated nurses looking down on their fellow professionals thinking along the lines that you do.
.

:uhoh3: :uhoh3:

amzyRN · Sep 13, 2007

The main reason I think that the BSN (or other bachelors degree vs. an associates degree) is a better option is b/c it gives a person more choices to advance their career and level of education. I don't necessarily think they make better nurses, but their extra education does something for them in particular. I think that if someone has got an associates degree they are obviously capable of going all the way to a PhD if thy choose to. I just think that the BSN gives more options and can be good for the mind in general,

J

Jerico, BSN, RN · Sep 13, 2007

Jerico,
Again, look at the states and nations that require a Bachelor's level nursing degree.
They do not have better pay, respect or conditions.
And you can review many of the posts about "Magnet" status - in mainly places it is like JCAHO reviews. The hopsital cleans and pretties up its numbers for a few weeks so they can have the coveted title of Magnet and things go back to "same old - same old". until next check.
I also do in fact get hired over many BSNs with equivalent experience. I do get paid more than quite a few of those I went to university with. Estimates - from THEM- I am in the top third. And probably half have Masters in their field.
And what does NP have to do with the price of tea in China. That is like comparing PAs to MDs - they are not equivalent jobs. An NP is not going to be a floor nurse, unless moonlighting for extra money.
Nurses need to be at the bedside providing care to fully assess the patient and provide the best care. RNs do that, not NPs. My job is to provide the best care to the patient because it is about THE PATIENT!!. Not prestigious titles or fancy degrees but about the care of the patient. Thus we need to focus on the care of the whole patient something that 3 year programs do quite well.
Why do I get picked over BSNs? By places like Hopkins, like the NIH, like MD Anderson, like Mass General. Because after reviewing my resume and especially references, they have seen that somehow I give better care to the patients than many other nurses.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And respectfully,
And if you are going to quote me, please do it properly so that your words do not get confused with mine. I am certain that would have been discussed in school as appropriate.

Caroladybelle:

You are angry. Am not on here to cause anger but to promote thought and open minds to view from a cerain perspective which will PROMPT ALL members the nursing profession to join as a cohesive group with a COMMON objective: to provide patient care above reproach or criticism.

I content this cannot be done without ELIMINATING the "fast-track" or "technical" nursing degrees or at LEAST seperating them out of the same registration/testing process as the BSN. A two year, a three year, a ONE year degree is simply NOT the same as a four year degree. ( Just as adding another 39 hours to a BSN creates a MASTER's degree which indicates MORE knowledge and expertise in one's field).

I cannot begin to tell you that in ONLY the two years I have been working side by side with nurses (on the floor) how often I come across a very much MORE experienced nurse who cannot EXPLAIN to me the how or why a physiological or chemical process works the way it does or why when managing personnel a GOOD manager does something which appears exactly opposite and contrary the "experienced" nurse cannot articulate the global reasoning behind the phenomena. It isn't that they are DUMB or STUPID or LESS of a caring bedside nurse, it is that it takes TIME in a didactic setting to develop to a certain level of reasoning.

Education is POWER. Any nurse who wants to see the profession of nursing rise above and beyond the "handmaiden", "technician", "helper" mentality the world interprets us as needs to accept that education IS the key and stop advising less experienced young people to take an easier track to get there.

Now, if some "nurses" out there AGREE we should stay in that position or they LIKE being in that position, fine, but BSNs out there should not be met with caustic sarcasm. Break out the BSN/RN from the ADN/RN by making it RN for BSN and above and RNT for Registered Nurse Technician Grade.

Because THAT is what less than a BSN truly is!

It always amazes me how people don't want to make waves and call a spade a spade....

I personally don't think BSNs should take the same test as those persons with only a two year degree. We should take a higher level test because more is expected of us - and we should expect it of ourselves.

We ALL (all RNs whatever degree) owe it to our PROFESSION. Our patients (who by the way are getting ever more savy medical information-wise) deserve not JUST technical skill, but the ability to reason and act logically and EXPLAIN the process BEHIND the procedure.

Jerico, BSN, RN · Sep 13, 2007

:uhoh3:

Am not looking DOWN on other nurses. Am trying to raise standards and measures for the profession of nursing.

Set a standard : meet the standard.

EX: To become a registered nurse you must have a Bachelor's degree in Nursing.

Simple.

As it is now:

To be come a registered nurse you just have to pass the NCLEX.

Well if that is the case I think everyone and their brother should be able to take the NCLEX straight out of high school!

Why go to college at all?

Let me give you another example:

The military before X date would let nurses become officers without a degree.

ALL other officers had to have a degree to BE an officer.

ALL other officers said: "What the #%@! kind of professional standard is THAT?"

All officers got paid the same, so why didn't NURSES have to meet the standard of other officers?

THAT is what BSNs are saying: What the $^#&@ - it appears everyone wants to PAY us ALL the same. And we are NOT all the same - BSN have a higher level of education.

Jerico, BSN, RN · Sep 13, 2007

The contention among nurses is a double sword:

BSNs want the respect and pay they have gone through the effort, time and money to earn through higher education.

ADNs want the respect and pay even though they have NOT gone through the effort, time and money to earn the higher education.

It is NOT professional to have a set of standards that is wishy washy....it demeans the profession and it confuses the public in general.

Jerico, BSN, RN · Sep 13, 2007

.... Please give us the evidence and data.

(This is only from IL, but further review of the lit would likely find somewhat same findings...)

"The National Sample Survey of Registered Nurses, 20047 findings included the following: RNs initial preparation for nursing:

In 1980 63% of RNs (nationally) initially graduated from Diploma programs, 19% from ADN programs, and 17% earned BSNs as their first nursing degree. By 2004 those figures had shifted dramatically with only 27% from Diploma schools, 42.2% from ADN programs and 30.4% from baccalaureate colleges or universities. Also in 2004, 0.5% of new nurses were initially educated in graduate programs.

Much of this shift was due to the demise of diploma schools and the subsequent rapid increase of ADN programs. At one time Illinois had over 40 hospital-based schools of nursing. Only one remains: Graham Hospital School of Nursing in Canton.

Highest Level of Preparation

In 2004, the National Sample reported 17.5% of nurses held diplomas as their highest level of preparation, 33.7% had Associate Degrees in Nursing, 34.2% had Bachelor's Degrees and 13% had either a Masters or Doctoral degree in nursing. This last is the most dramatic as the survey states that between 1980 and 2004 the estimated number of nurses with graduate degrees in nursing rose 339%.

Average age of Graduates from initial RN program

The aging of the nursing workforce is a concern for this shortage and the future of nursing. One encouraging statistic however is the age of graduates when they complete their initial program. In 2000 that average age was 30.5 years but it had decreased (slightly) to 29.6 years by 2004. Age cohorts of those graduating from initial program between 2000 and 2004 were reported as "under 25"-39.2% and "35-49":-20.9%. The average age of ADN graduates during that period was 31.9 years and of

BSN graduates, 26.2 years.

Graduates from programs outside the United States

3.5% of RNs practicing in the US received their basic nursing education outside the US. (Doesn't include Guam, Puerto Rico, or Virgin Islands - all territories of the US.) The Philippines send the most foreign nurse graduates to the US- 50.2%. Canadian nurses comprise 20.2% of the graduates of other countries practicing in the US.

59.9% of foreign nurse graduates practicing in the US have baccalaureate and higher degrees (2% have doctoral degrees.) 68.5% of these nurses are bilingual with English being one of their primary languages."

Hmmm....59.9% of foreign nurse graduates in US have BS or higher...

I KNEW it. I have recently been working with INDIAN nurses who just came from Dubai. They are ABSOLUTELY awesome NICU nurses. THE best of the best. Am so PROUD to have them help train me.

sharona97, BSN, RN · Sep 13, 2007

Let me first start out by saying I am an ASN RN plannining on going onto at least my BSN. My feeling is that if we want to be taken seriously as a profession, a BSN should be the entry level. All other professionals recieve 4 year degrees. By only requiring 2 years or worse dimploma nurses- we are lumped into all the other technical fields- mechanics, electricians, hairdressers. Not to knock anyone at all...but, we are medical professionals who take people's lives into our hands everyday and I would personally feel better if all nurses had 4 years of college. You need four years to be a teacher, an accountant, or a biologist...why not nurse? I know this is a huge debate with many contributing factors- the nursing shortage, the lack of nursing intructors, ect...but I wanted to open it up to debate! I think this requirement would earn us more respect and maybe more wage. I know my program lacked some basic science, health promotion and maintainance, assessment and pharmacology classes that would have better prepared me as a nurse. My whole class felt lacking in Pharmacology and demanded the class be added only to be told there was no room in our 2 year program. This is just one school, but; I'm sure there are others out there with the same problem. What ever you decide...education is never a waste of time and money!

Would'nt it be great, except people have personal choices for personal reasons.:trout:

Jerico, BSN, RN · Sep 13, 2007

Yes, people all have personal reasons - practical or otherwise why they prefer OR needed the shorter route to an RN. Money, family, incentive....fate.

ABSOLUTELY!

Rarely is the best way the quickest OR easiest, either.

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Sep 13, 2007

(This is only from IL, but further review of the lit would likely find somewhat same findings...)
Hmmm....59.9% of foreign nurse graduates in US have BS or higher...
I KNEW it. I have recently been working with INDIAN nurses who just came from Dubai. They are ABSOLUTELY awesome NICU nurses. THE best of the best. Am so PROUD to have them help train me.

Why Thank You for proving my point.

Canadian nurses (where in most places, one must have a Bachelor's) continues to have problems with inadequate employment (many nurses that want fulltime employment but must make do with part time - or casual positions). Why are they coming to the USA (that doesn't require a BSN)? Because the pay is better, there is the opportunity to have more hours and better employment conditions, than are available in "Bachelor's required" Canada. That "Bachelor's only" hasn't helped them unless they move from home.

The Philippines where conditions are poor - what has BSN gotten them? The chance to go to school to move to the USA, where a BSN is not required, but conditions are much better. Their BSN only helps them if they want to move thousands of miles from home.

I work with plenty of Indian nurses - why are they here? Because conditions are poorer in India.....did their BSN prove so advantageous there in India????? No, it did not.

Conditions for nurses in Canada and others have not improved as a result of getting a BSN, respect has not increased and pay is not better because of getting a BSN. It merely pushed them to moving to a nation that treats its nurses better even without a BSN.

I also suggest that you look at the pay rates in ND during it's BSN only years.

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Again, show me where a nation or state requires a Bachelor's and it improved the respect/pay/conditions of those nurses in that nation/state .......without them having to move to another state/nation (where incidently, BSN is not required) to get that better pay/conditions.

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PS. Please don't "assume" that I am angry when I assure you that I am not.

Because it can be seen as condescending. Much like when men accuse a woman of PMSing, when actually she isn't.

Most of the regulars on these BB well know when I am truly upset......a rare phenomenon, as I do not waste anger on trivial issues.